Maureen (00:01.075)
Hello, everybody. I am so thrilled to have my guest here today, Castle Donovan. And I want to introduce you to her. She's an amazing woman. She is a family nurse practitioner with over 13 years of experience here in Annapolis, Maryland. Her journey in healthcare, especially her work on the front lines during the pandemic, shows just how committed and resilient she is. These qualities were shaped a big decision she made at a young age.
to remove alcohol from her life. So today we'll talk about what led her to that choice and how it's impacted her life and who she is now because of that choice. So she's now living in Highland Beach with her husband and her two boys. And this blew my mind. is also an ice hockey player and a marathon runner. So I definitely want to hear about that. Living a full life of strength and wellness, which is what SoberFit, your SoberFit life is all about. So welcome Castle.
Kastle Donovan (00:56.044)
Thank you so much, Maureen. I have been looking forward to this all summer. And I really just want to also thank you for giving us a platform to talk about this. It's a difficult subject, I think, for a lot of people to talk about and bring up. It can be very taboo. And I've been encouraged in recent times about the trend that we're kind of headed towards, I think, where we're really starting to explore more about whether or not alcohol has a
deserves a place in our lives to the degree that it does for a lot of people.
Maureen (01:30.579)
Yeah, I think we're coming into a good time where the sober curiosity piece and people are starting to understand and the science is coming out more and more about how it's just really in no way beneficial for us. But when you made the decision, it was a long time ago when you were a kid, right? And you said 20 years ago, I think. So I'd love to hear, you know, your story.
Kastle Donovan (01:47.788)
Yeah, yeah, I was just.
Absolutely. Sure. So yeah, I cannot believe that I've just come up on 20 years. It seems really like it was another life. mean, almost sometimes like a dream. And there was a good portion of my late teens and early twenties where I really did feel like I was just kind of in a alcohol induced haze of a dream. You know, I never set out to, you know, with the intent of stopping drinking. was...
Maureen (01:59.229)
That's amazing.
Maureen (02:13.213)
Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (02:21.89)
Probably pretty standard for the average person, I think, in America. Average young person kind of started to experiment with alcohol in your late teens, maybe in your later years of high school. And, you know, it's all fun and games. You know, we'd meet up in a parking lot and just kind of weekend stuff, nothing regular. What ended up going to college, I grew up out in California in the East Bay and then went to college on the East Coast here at GW. And in retrospect, you know, being that far away from my parents, that was the goal. That's what I wanted.
Maureen (02:51.697)
Right.
Kastle Donovan (02:52.137)
But it ultimately, I think for me, was a little too far. mean, they had, this was back before people had cell phones and regular internet, and it wasn't something that necessarily facilitated a relationship with my parents. And I spent a lot of my time at George Washington University partying. And I remember coming home from my break and at Christmas time and my dad saying,
Maureen (02:58.833)
Right.
Kastle Donovan (03:18.828)
Wow, look at you, you've gained a lot of weight, you look puffy. And I was like, huh. And he said, you must be drinking lot. Yeah, exactly. And that's certainly what it was. And I found as I got through my four years of college, and I did graduate in four years, and I had a decent GPA and everything, I winged a lot of it. And I wonder in retrospect if I really kind of applied myself how well I could have done. But I started to notice trends with my drinking where I would wake up with incredible feelings of guilt.
Maureen (03:21.843)
Freshman 10.
Kastle Donovan (03:48.206)
And it wasn't the version of myself that I wanted to be and I you know I guess I didn't really know who I was or who I wanted to be at the time and I was you know I was 23 years old when I finally made the decision to stop drinking altogether and again it was spurred by this overwhelming feeling that alcohol was making me be someone I didn't want to be and then I didn't have a great deal of control over who I was when I was under the influence and
Maureen (04:14.899)
So let me ask you there, you're 23, you're obviously drinking with a bunch of friends, were you talking to them about this concern or was this whole sort of an internal monologue you were having with yourself?
Kastle Donovan (04:26.284)
This was really an internal monologue. And a lot of that was driven by, I think, the relationship with peers at the time, where everyone's on the same page as you are. Everyone is partying to the same extent I was. And had a lot of people say to me, you're not doing anything outside the norm. You don't have a problem with alcohol. And ultimately, it was my own mom who said to me, if you don't feel good about who you are when you're drinking, you have a problem with alcohol. So what are you going to do about it?
Maureen (04:53.981)
she was way ahead of her time with that statement. Way ahead of her time.
Kastle Donovan (04:56.044)
Way ahead of her time. yeah. And it was her recommendation that, maybe you go to AA, you know, maybe you need to go to Alcoholics Anonymous. And I thought, I don't, but I don't have, I'm still going to work. I'm still, you know, I make a living. I pay my bills. Like I don't really have a problem. But again, it all came back to what my threshold of tolerance was for, for what I was willing to, to, to be and who, who, again, getting back to this question of, is this the best version that I can be for myself and, and for my future self?
Maureen (05:09.201)
right.
Maureen (05:15.923)
Mm
Kastle Donovan (05:26.638)
And I was increasingly again seeing patterns with the drinking where it would involve driving or reckless spending with the credit card, not finding my wallet or it was at the bar where I left it the next morning, stuff like that. And that shamed me. I felt a lot of shame about that. So I didn't wanna live that way. I didn't wanna be that person. So that's ultimately what's.
Maureen (05:40.488)
Yeah.
Maureen (05:48.499)
I have to stop you there though because I just think that's incredible at 23 because I was feeling the same way. But you really made a mature choice and I love how you said you were thinking about your future self. Again, that's a very mature thought to be having. So, you know, when you first told me you did this, you kind of glossed over it. I'm like, that's amazing that you did this. So at 23, so I wanted you to share because there's probably a lot of young people out there.
Kastle Donovan (06:05.24)
Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (06:09.859)
Yeah, and it was completely wonderful.
Maureen (06:15.513)
in college who are struggling with this and to hear what you just said.
Kastle Donovan (06:15.734)
Yeah, exactly. I think so. yeah, and again, you know, thinking about the future and again, not knowing how to get from the place I was to the place I knew I wanted to be was what ultimately spurred the decision. And it kept coming down to this big common denominator. What's, why am I not?
person I want to be and it kept coming back to that. It kept coming back to who I was when I was drinking. And again, it was very, very difficult because my friends were so, while they were supportive and they were like, that's kind of interesting and you really think you have a problem? Well, what do you think, what about me? It would always come back to that. Like if you have a problem, then I have a problem and then you don't have a problem. So, and it wasn't a judgment on them. mean, I certainly...
Maureen (06:54.845)
Exactly.
Kastle Donovan (07:04.642)
tried to still hang out and go out as much as I could. But it got to the point where a lot of times just that maintaining that kind of lifestyle wasn't sustainable anymore. they either had to take me as I was or I was doing other things and finding new people to hang out with. I was very, very fortunate at the time. My now husband was my then boyfriend. And he was
Maureen (07:15.218)
Right.
Maureen (07:27.26)
Okay, wow.
Kastle Donovan (07:31.106)
you know, never had been a drinker and was very, very supportive of this decision and never, never once had said to me while I was drinking, I think you have a problem and you need to stop. There was never, and I had a couple of my friends say, is he the reason? Is he the reason why? Did he make you do this? And I was like, you know, no, actually, he loved me even then, like when I was that person that I didn't want to be. And so for me to...
Maureen (07:35.421)
Nice.
Maureen (07:39.655)
Mm
Kastle Donovan (07:57.55)
to now see us come full circle. We'll be married 16 years in September. It's really, yeah, I think a lot of what we have in our relationship is based off of that decision that I made 20 years ago. So, yeah.
Maureen (08:00.878)
congratulations.
Maureen (08:10.419)
20 years ago. Yeah. And you made a statement when we were first talking before we recorded that you're such a different person now, that it's changed everything. Can you touch on that? Like how that has impacted you moving forward?
Kastle Donovan (08:24.258)
Yeah, absolutely. I think for me, when I stopped drinking, it became less about me. I was a less self -centered person. I was a less self -absorbed person, worried about my own fun and trying to generate my own good time and everything. And it became more about...
how do I shift the focus away from me into other people? And it coincided with my starting my career in medicine. And these decisions kind of came almost back to back on top of one another, stopping drinking, enrolling in nursing school. It was probably within a month of each other that I did all this. And that I think, sometimes I think, that was serendipitous. And then I think, no, no, that was very much by design. That was an intentional choice to choose a career that was going to be about me needing
Maureen (08:53.33)
Yes.
Maureen (09:09.148)
Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (09:14.464)
to be my best so that I could help other people. And that every time I go to work, it's not about me making money, it's not about me feeding some adrenaline rush, which I had to admit in the trauma ICU, there was a little bit of that. But it was about helping other people and being at my best by 6 .30 every single morning to get on my shift and knowing that you can't be going out late at night all the time like that if you're gonna come in and then respond to a code blue at 7 .30 after you clock in. So I wanted to...
Maureen (09:26.77)
I bet.
Maureen (09:41.979)
Now you knew that, but it was probably a lot of drinking going on in medical school as well, right around you.
Kastle Donovan (09:48.386)
Well, and I was in my NP program at the time, and yeah, certainly, just as a social outlet alone, there was a lot of that. And I think that touches a lot on the way we depend on alcohol for almost a crutch or a stress reliever or a way to escape some of the things that you see in the ER, which can be very, very upsetting and disturbing. It's hard to bring that stuff home. But that said, it was ultimately something
Maureen (09:54.493)
Mm -hmm.
Kastle Donovan (10:18.362)
that when I threw myself into this career it took my focus away from the fact that I'm not I'm not drinking like that anymore.
And now this is what I'm going to do. you know, I had a, went to Marymount University in Northern Virginia and there was a internship that we did in Belize. And we went and did, you know, we were serving an underserved community there of people that had nothing, you know, and to have a perspective outside of what we see here in the United States, we are so very privileged. I mean, if you think about a lot of the alcohol issues that we have, I mean, can we trace a lot of it back to a culture in some cases of overindulgence or
Maureen (10:46.162)
Yes.
Maureen (10:54.631)
Mm -hmm.
Kastle Donovan (10:55.052)
of plentitude and I don't know if that's the word but you know I think that's a lot of it too and this illusion that we can only have a good life if we're having fun we can only relax if it's there you know and certainly when I went down there we were down there for about a month you know and these people live a genuinely happy life and they have a lot of times next to nothing you know you would
you would come home, I remember coming home and just to have ice or air conditioning or a bed with a mattress, shoes to walk outside in. I mean, those were the kind of basics. So again, my career helped me through that transition of going from drinking to sobriety by helping focus on other people and not so much about, this woe is me, I can't have fun anymore. No, you can still have fun. But let's make this not so much about Castle.
Maureen (11:26.973)
Mm.
Maureen (11:47.333)
So, yeah, I'm hearing you say you are practicing gratitude. So you got this perspective and then you're grateful for what you have. So, and that's such a big thing I talk to with my clients and practice for myself is gratitude because when we're drinking, it's like we're trying to find something or fill some void or get some experience that is just so empty or very short -lived certainly. And when you practice gratitude, like you're talking about, that makes all the difference.
I wanted to go back to something that I just think is so impressive that I you gloss over. But here you are, 23, you tell your friends you're stopping and they do something that's very common that people now do all the time, whether you're 23 or 65 and your friend tells you they're going to stop drinking. They're like, what does that mean for me? Because you hold up this unintentional mirror to them. so their response is never really about you.
Kastle Donovan (12:35.905)
Yeah.
Maureen (12:42.309)
It's about how it makes them feel. And I know when I was drinking and I'd run into somebody who's like, I'm taking a break or whatever, I'd be like, well, I'm not hanging out with you, you know, because I felt threatened. My drinking was threatened. So talk about that a little bit because how did you, what strategies did you use? How did you get through that?
Kastle Donovan (12:43.017)
Right.
Kastle Donovan (13:04.3)
And I will say this, I was in a fortunate situation again with my then boyfriend, now husband, who was like...
Maureen (13:08.731)
Mm -hmm.
Kastle Donovan (13:11.53)
just my guy, you know, and I was really, really lucky because he was never a drinker. But I have to say, you know, they I don't want it to make it sound like they, you know, dropped me like a hot potato. They certainly didn't and respected my decision. But it was a lot of pressure as to why and and, know, what are you going to are you still going to come? And are you you know, do we need to are we OK to drink around you? I mean, there was a lot of that, too. And I will say, you know, sometimes
you do feel like the odd man out. And that was difficult as a young person, almost a, certainly not ostracized, but a curiosity more than anything. Like, there, or I'd run into people who hadn't seen me in a while and they'd be like, there's our girl, there's our party girl. But no, not this time. Like, that's interesting. Castle, wow, Castle had enough. Like, you know, it was always this kind of curiosity, I think. And then would come the mirror that you referenced of like, well, I mean, you don't really have a problem, Castle.
Maureen (13:43.387)
yeah.
Maureen (14:02.811)
of right.
Kastle Donovan (14:11.344)
anything different than the rest of us. And it's like, yeah, well, it's a personal choice, you know? And that's ultimately what it would come down to. I navigated it pretty well, I think, by continuing to show off that stuff. I'd always bail a little early. I'd have an early exit. I'd have, either Garrett would be with me and we'd be like, we're heading back out, or I would, you know, I'd be like, gosh, I got, you know, I have an early shift tomorrow. I'd check the clock and be like, I gotta go.
Maureen (14:20.092)
Yeah.
Maureen (14:23.697)
Yes, there's your strategy.
Kastle Donovan (14:36.82)
and I'd always have something like a diet coke with a lime in it, you know what I mean? And that staved off a lot of the questions too. And between you and me, I still had fun. I still danced. I still sang along to songs. I still acted goofy and waved my ponytail around. And it wasn't that far off. was just I was still who I wanted to be. was still the version of Castle. I was holding true to the version of Castle that I wanted to be.
Maureen (15:03.685)
And was that a surprise to you that you could be that person at first? Yeah, yes.
Kastle Donovan (15:06.924)
Yes, a shock, a shock. I didn't know it was there. didn't, and I think because I was so young and went through all these formative years as someone who really enjoyed drinking and partying, I didn't know, I didn't know who I was. And it took the removal of the alcohol to find her, you know, to say, that's, that's what I was missing. That's, she's there all along, you know? And I think, I think for a lot of people, if they haven't had a chance,
to see, and again, maybe it's different for people that are just in their, that are now in their forties and considering quitting alcohol. I'm sure that a lot of them really feel like they know who they are and alcohol maybe isn't a big part of it, but I mean.
Maureen (15:45.747)
No, actually, that's why I want to highlight this point because the clients I work with are anywhere from 50 to 70 and they're still struggling with those same issues. What will my friends think? How will I go to a party? How will I go to a wedding? How can I dance? What do I do? So everything you just said was amazing. You surrounded yourself with some people who didn't drink like your boyfriend and you also started to find other friends. And then when you went to the party, you had something, an alcohol -free substitute.
Kastle Donovan (16:12.972)
Yep. Yep.
Maureen (16:13.779)
You went early when people are in the early drinking and then you had a plan to cut out. Like everything you did is exactly what I coach people on. And no, that's the shocking thing is we're still dealing with it. And actually the drinking is getting, and you must see this in your medical profession, is binge drinking is increasing among women and 50 and up. So it is very difficult for people at this age and they don't always know who they are. Without drinking, it's scary.
Kastle Donovan (16:42.516)
Yeah, yeah, it is, it is.
Maureen (16:44.605)
Mm
Kastle Donovan (16:46.018)
You know, I definitely found a way to make it work for me at the time, not knowing a lot of this stuff. And again, I did have support. mean, the AA meetings that I had been going to, I phased out of those after about five, six years. you know, I had support with people there. I had a sponsor, a dear, dear woman who still to this day, I've kind of fallen out of touch with, but I still every now and then will maintain some texting with her. She read a psalm in our wedding, know, when Garrett and I got married.
But yeah, she was always there and and really also I became that person that friend that my drinking friends then said hey, can you hey? you make sure that we don't do anything crazy? Can you make sure we all get home? Okay, and I can't tell you how many situations I bailed people out of just having eyes on friends. So you get you almost get a new I don't want to call it like a street cred but like
Maureen (17:26.653)
Yes.
Maureen (17:35.912)
Mm -hmm.
Maureen (17:42.247)
Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (17:42.732)
you know, you're a trusted person for your friends now too. And so there was a value to that. know, there were not just to my friends, but for me, I felt good knowing, okay, like, you know, I don't have to police them, but if I'm there, I can kind of like make sure that I've got the, you know, the blinders on them and that they're gonna, you know, not screw anything up too badly either. So, but yeah, yeah. And then, then getting back to my AA experience, just to touch on that, I wish I had known that there was an option like what you do, you know, and at the time I just,
Maureen (18:05.0)
Yes.
Kastle Donovan (18:11.886)
I didn't look into it, it wasn't well known that there could be other options besides either you just pulled turkeys back. I don't think so, yeah. And so, you I remember going in there and turning around at the door of the first meeting that I was about to walk into, I so nervous and I felt like I don't belong here. There's all these people, I'm 23, everyone walking in like is, you know, AARP age like this is not right for me. And as I was leaving,
Maureen (18:15.015)
Yeah, I don't think there really was actually at your time. I don't think there really was.
Kastle Donovan (18:39.104)
A woman was running in late and she this ended up being my sponsor. She grabbed me by the hand and was like, where are going? I was like, no, I'm, can't, I'm not supposed to be here. Like this isn't, doesn't feel right. She's like, just come in, just come in and sit with me and you're going to be fine. And she grabbed me by the hand and took me inside and I thank her every day for that gesture, know, of kindness and putting herself out there. So that experience, AA had a huge value for me and that it taught me that you can be honest about your drinking and your threshold.
Maureen (18:44.285)
Ha, that's good.
Maureen (18:57.277)
Yes.
Maureen (19:02.983)
Yes.
Kastle Donovan (19:08.728)
for what your rock bottom is, it might not be someone else's. mean, I never, I didn't hurt anyone in a car accident. I didn't, you know, do anything negligent to my family or my kids or anything, but it was my own rock bottom. And everyone has to find where theirs is. And if you wake up one morning and you say, you know what, I've had enough. I, you know, maybe had a slip of the tongue last night, put my foot in my mouth. Maybe that's your rock bottom, you know? And maybe that's, maybe you tried this.
Maureen (19:30.425)
Mm Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (19:35.472)
But it doesn't have to be necessarily through AA, you because there's a lot of comparing out that can happen when you're, you know, maybe.
Maureen (19:40.147)
Well, I think AA is wonderful. If it works with your central nervous system and that works for you. My best friend who we started drinking together at the same age at 14, we also decided to stop drinking at the same age in our 50s and she went to AA route and I went coaching and we talk about it all the time. So it's great that there are many different options and that works with whatever, you know, works for you. So I just think it's again incredible that you did all this as a young person. And so,
Kastle Donovan (19:50.059)
Mm
Maureen (20:07.975)
How does that affect you moving forward now as a healthcare professional and even as a mother? You know, must be, I know your kids are young, but you must be thinking about, you what's coming up ahead of you.
Kastle Donovan (20:15.308)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It crosses our mind.
And we certainly don't want to dangle that as this forbidden fruit. It's not in our home unless people that don't know Garrett and I drink will bring us a gift or something of wine at a dinner party. But I think by now it's been long enough that our friends and family mostly know that Garrett and I just don't drink. And it's become so normalized at this point that we do have to say to ourselves, wow, our kids won't find out about it through us here in our home.
Maureen (20:25.149)
Right.
Kastle Donovan (20:49.694)
They're not going to see us drinking. They're not going to watch us come home from work and crack a beer or open a bottle of wine. So, you know, I don't want them judging people that do that, but I also want them having an awareness of what that is and what that isn't, you know, and the dangers that are very real. And as a healthcare provider, you mentioned, I can speak to that. I have so many patients that I try to have this conversation with. And I think most people are open to
Maureen (21:01.811)
Mm
Maureen (21:11.656)
Mm -hmm.
Kastle Donovan (21:18.958)
hearing, know, I always, everybody, how much do you drink? You can be honest with me and tell me. I don't have to multiply the number by two or 10 or whatever it is we do in the ER. You know, how many drinks a day? How many drinks a week? And then I'll segue into, know, truthfully, there is no safe amount. The medical community is in consensus that there isn't a safe amount of alcohol for you to use. So you need to determine if it's worth it for you. And most people say, yeah.
Maureen (21:37.426)
Yes.
Kastle Donovan (21:47.318)
It is, it's worth it for me. I get relaxation out of it. I like the stress relief. I like the effervescent feeling. That's mostly what it comes down to. But when we get to a point where we're looking at elevated liver enzymes and we're looking at elevated triglyceride levels and I've diagnosed you with a fatty liver and we've confirmed that on an ultrasound, that's really, really difficult to back out of. And that can have really long -term lasting implications for health.
Maureen (21:58.035)
Mm
Kastle Donovan (22:14.73)
if it's gotten to that point. And for a lot of these people, they don't view themselves, nor would society classify them as problem drinkers. These are casual drinkers. These aren't necessarily people that would say they have a problem. And they probably, frankly, don't. But if we get your labs back, and this is the only reason we can identify we've eliminated every other possible cause of this, it's that you're drinking every day, even if it's just one to two glasses of wine. We need to stop. We need to have you
Maureen (22:39.22)
Yeah. Yeah. So let's break that down a little bit because it's that whole, first of all, the alcohol industry, right? The marketing, it's huge. And the alcohol industry has been big sponsors of moderate drinking is good for you. When you really dig deep and you see who is behind many of these studies, most of these studies, even ones at NIH, it's the alcohol industry. And they want to promote that moderate drinking is good. But the studies, scientific studies are coming out and saying,
Kastle Donovan (23:00.034)
Yeah.
Maureen (23:07.027)
As you just said, there is no safe amount. And the kind of person I deal with is the gray area drinker. So if you're drinking more than one or two drinks a week, you're in the gray. And if you're, so I don't deal with people who need medical intervention, or I don't want to say I don't deal with them, but that's not who I coach. I'm in the gray. And that's like 99 % of people are drinking in the gray. Well, I drink moderately? Yes, you do. And again, the alcohol industry has really made us think,
Kastle Donovan (23:28.781)
Yeah.
Maureen (23:35.653)
Look, if you don't hit rock bottom, and what we mean by rock bottom is you can't work, you're losing your family, you're losing your friends, then you don't have any reason to take a look at how you're drinking. And you're yet sharing, but wait, I'm actually seeing medical information, data, statistics, numbers that actually if you would take a break from drinking or stop drinking altogether, this would really benefit your health, even if you drink moderately. But it's a hard message to sell.
Kastle Donovan (24:00.11)
Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
It is such a hard message to sell. And there's definitely a culture, as you mentioned, especially with women, know, age and everything, the mommy wine culture and everything too, almost dependence on it to get through just the day to day minutay of having a family and young kids and everything. And again, I mean this not to pass any judgment at all, but I want people to be aware that it isn't, it's not as benign as it might seem.
Maureen (24:11.581)
Mm
Maureen (24:14.98)
Mm
Maureen (24:35.798)
no.
Kastle Donovan (24:36.548)
or as society makes it out to be. We can get through baby showers, weddings, bachelorette parties, graduations without alcohol. And what if we did and we all were better versions of ourselves that we just didn't know were there all along? I had a patient the other day my age, know, in her low 40s, two young kids said to me, you know, I had at the beginning of the summer, I decided to stop drinking. And at first it was just for a week. And then I said,
Maureen (24:51.837)
Mm Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (25:06.304)
I I wonder if I can do this for the month of June and then got all the way through June. It felt so good that she added all the way through July. And I just saw her this past week and she said, I'm coming up on 90 days and I'm not going back. I feel better than I ever have in my entire life. I've lost weight. I've had the cleanest, most authentic summer of my life and enjoyed my family to a degree that I never have before.
Maureen (25:11.357)
Yes.
Maureen (25:19.837)
That's great.
Maureen (25:27.091)
Mm.
Kastle Donovan (25:32.78)
And that just resonated so much with me. And this wasn't someone that I had pinpointed with terrible lab work. She just said, I don't want it in my life anymore. I don't want to feel like I need it. And I want to see what I can do. And it was her version of maybe running a marathon. I want to see if I can do it. And she did. And she's like, I feel so great. She said the other day she went on a girls' trip. And her husband, when she got home, said to her, did you drink? And she said, no, actually I didn't. I didn't have a single drink. I had non -alcoholic.
Maureen (25:36.818)
Right.
Maureen (25:59.953)
Amazing.
Kastle Donovan (26:02.724)
He was happy for her. wasn't excited that she had finally broken her streak. He was like, and he still drinks, but he was like, I am so glad that you didn't. I'm happy for you. I'm happy for us. Because he likes the version that they are kind of transitioning into.
Maureen (26:03.538)
Yes.
Maureen (26:08.967)
He's proud of her. Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen (26:18.363)
Yeah, I let's talk about that. you see, and I know personally, I felt it was increasing my depression. You know, I'm a person who has depression and it was exacerbating it and it was causing me anxiety, insomnia, irritability, gut issues. You know, I could go on and these aren't even the numbers you're looking at, but these are like tangible things and people just start to get used to it. like, I guess this is just how I feel. But no, it's actually moderate drinking alcohol that causes that.
Kastle Donovan (26:40.141)
Right.
Kastle Donovan (26:49.184)
Exactly. Yeah. And you know, and I have patients all the time too that will come in with, you know, a grief response and they've been drinking more than they should. And as you referenced, the degree to which that excessive alcohol consumption, even if it's just for a short period of time, a temporary thing that they're going through, it exacerbates the depression, the anxiety, the sleeplessness tenfold. It really is. It's a central nervous system depressant. It amplifies those feelings of negativity.
Maureen (26:54.844)
Mm
Maureen (27:12.605)
Yeah, depressant.
Kastle Donovan (27:19.3)
It makes the bottom fall out. So, you know, I try my very best in those moments to, again, without being judgy or anything, what else can we be doing right now? You cannot turn to this as a solution. It's only going to make things worse. And so, yeah, it's never going to be an answer. And I think that's ultimately some of the things that I try to counsel patients on, too. What other things can we focus on instead to help you get through this? Is it a medication? Is it a lifestyle change? Can we substitute the
alcohol with another focus. And I think a lot of people are surprised when they're in that gray area of moderate drinking that it's easier than they thought it would be. The biggest barrier that I see patients having is really that social barrier or dynamic with their spouse, know, of, that's, he's my husband. That's what we do together. It's my drinking buddy. Yes. Like how I don't know what our relationship looks like if that's not in it. So that's scary. You know, that's scary to rock.
Maureen (27:50.28)
Yes.
Maureen (28:01.735)
Yes, that's the biggest.
Maureen (28:07.965)
That's how we met. Yes.
Kastle Donovan (28:19.205)
the boat like that. That's huge. Right, right, yes.
Maureen (28:19.493)
I went through that. John and I met drinking, you know, at Penn State, big drinkers at Penn State. We met afterwards at a bar. And you hear that from so many people. We met in a bar, especially like in the eighties or the nineties. That's how we met. And when I came to this decision, I thought, how are we going to relate? This is what we do together. So I had to have lots of conversations and lots of communication and
like your patient, my husband was very supportive of my decision because he did see the anxiety and the depression and he sees a huge difference in me now. So he still drinks, but he drinks so much less because I would drive that train of drinking more. yeah, it's a big question in my relationship, social, but it's when you go through it. So you have to actually go through the experience. You can tell yourself all the knowledge, okay, we know that
Kastle Donovan (29:00.92)
Sure.
Maureen (29:14.515)
Alcohol is a toxin. Alcohol is related to seven different types of cancer. Alcohol, you know, I'd be better off if I didn't drink it. That's all knowledge, but you have to go through like your patient did 30 days, 60 days, and 90 days is really when you can feel a big difference. So that's what I try to encourage people to do is be curious, like you said earlier, and start being aware of your drinking habits. Like, are you driving home and thinking about pouring that drink?
Kastle Donovan (29:34.934)
Mm -hmm. Right.
Maureen (29:40.049)
Yes, most people are already thinking about it and you're already getting that dopamine hit before you even pour that drink because your brain has gotten so used to it. So it's just, you know, it's so interesting when you learn about the brain chemistry and habit change and you take away the fear by helping people become more aware and curious instead of willpower and beating themselves up. But like your patient did, like, let me just try this. Let me just see. Like, what have you got to lose?
Kastle Donovan (29:47.437)
Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (30:05.88)
Why not?
Exactly, have nothing to lose. You have nothing to lose. Yeah. And I like to do sometimes if I have the ability to do it, I'll do quarterly lab checks on patients. And if they've really cut back on their alcohol intake, the market difference that we see in these lab metrics from the before and after a 90 -day window of time, it really is possible to reduce the amount of stress you're putting on your liver, your cholesterol profile. You can bring these numbers down by eliminating that.
or even just cutting it back dramatically. If people are able to do that, we see a huge reduction. It only behooves you from a medical standpoint to cut it out. There really is no good place for it there. And you know, just to...
Maureen (30:51.059)
powerful. Do you do that as a program? Do you say, let's take your baseline and go 90 days and...
Kastle Donovan (30:59.404)
So what I'll do is when I'm screening patients and I get their lab work back
And it shows some indication that maybe alcohol is playing a factor in the way some of these liver enzymes look, in the way that we're seeing some cholesterol buildup, certain types of cholesterol. Or maybe we've done a coronary calcium score and there's plaque buildup there. And we've got patients on the right medications they need to be on. What other things can we do to improve your lab? And your chances of not dying of a cardiac event. We're needing a liver transplant. How much do you drink?
That's the next question I always ask. Tell me a little bit about your drinking habits and what kind of alcohol. And truthfully, there's not one that's better than another, again, from a medical standpoint. I've had patients say, but I only drink beer. I'll only have, I don't drink hard liquor. It's only wine. It doesn't matter. Your liver is still filtering that in the same way. Exactly.
Maureen (31:42.491)
No. Yeah.
Maureen (31:53.479)
Alcohol is alcohol is alcohol. It's a toxin. As soon as it goes in your body, your body says, that toxin is coming in my body.
Kastle Donovan (32:02.865)
And I remember in your presentation how you referenced it as one of those.
I can't remember what you called it, something about a certain type of drug, a dirty drug, a dirty drug. Yes, and it crosses the barrier of everything, the placental barrier, the blood -brain barrier. It goes into every cell. There's nothing spared. So truly bathing your insides in this and your, you know, all of your organs get a dose of it. So, and we'll explore that with patients when their labs come back and I'll say, if you can cut back on this, your levels are going to improve in three months. Can you stop three
Maureen (32:08.956)
It's a dirty drug.
Maureen (32:13.683)
Mm
Yes, every cell.
Maureen (32:29.224)
Yes.
Kastle Donovan (32:37.124)
months and then we'll check again. We do quarterly checks in our practice oftentimes for patients who have labs that don't look right and when they've stopped it altogether, the vast majority of patients we see significant improvement and a lot of times it means they maybe don't need to take a med or I can start backing off some other prescriptions that they're already taking full dose of. Maybe can we try a half dose for a while if you're able to maintain these levels. We'll keep checking but if you're able to do this on your own we don't want to keep you on medication. We want you to be able to
you know, live without this stuff. yeah, so it's definitely, yeah, it is powerful. When people see the results, when we can give them actual empirical data to look at, and they've done the hard work, and we say, look, your liver's happy now. It's not sending out these stressed enzyme levels, you know, through the roof, they get so happy. So it's great, yeah. And you know, and I don't mean to scare people either. That's definitely not an approach,
Maureen (33:09.223)
That's powerful.
Maureen (33:14.632)
Mm
Maureen (33:30.471)
That doesn't work. Scaring people doesn't work.
Kastle Donovan (33:34.026)
No, it really doesn't. And that's just not my personality. And I don't open up a whole lot. I like to maintain a certain degree of professional boundary at work. But if there's a patient in there that I know I'm going to connect with or someone who may be in a similar situation to me, that's a story that every now and then I have opened up about and told them my personal choice not to.
Maureen (33:55.645)
Mm
Kastle Donovan (34:02.234)
And I think that resonates too, when you're not just preaching to somebody about something you're actually walking the walk to. So that helps a lot. And to be able to tell people, you're going to be OK. You are. Trust yourself. You have everything you need. You're going to be all right through this.
Maureen (34:06.407)
Yes. Yes.
Maureen (34:18.279)
I think it's absolutely imperative that it's someone they know has walked this walk. That makes a big difference. And many doctors, this is kind of a sticky subject, and nurses are gray area drinkers, right? So they're also using it for stress relief. And so it's kind of a hard conversation to have and not all doctors and nurse practitioners and nurses are asking these questions.
Kastle Donovan (34:32.799)
yes.
Kastle Donovan (34:44.13)
Right, exactly. And again, I think that goes back to the mirror that you referenced. It's hard to tell somebody not to do something that you might be going home and doing on your own. Yeah, that's a challenge for sure. And I think moving forward as our kids do get older, I know you had touched on that a couple minutes back about how we're going to approach that with the kids. But I would probably start, I don't want to be too clinical with them, but definitely start from a point of like, again, this really isn't, there's nothing good about this that this will
Maureen (34:46.397)
Mm
Maureen (35:04.328)
Mm
Kastle Donovan (35:14.284)
And if you want to know who you are, if you don't want to go through difficult moments impaired, if you want to see what you're capable of doing as a human being, I don't know that you don't need this. There may not be a role for this in your life. And I'm here to tell you that you can certainly live a joyful and full and thriving life without it. And that's what I want my kids to see. And do we have bad days? Absolutely. I have miserable, miserable
Maureen (35:18.29)
I love that.
Kastle Donovan (35:43.936)
miserable days just like everybody has. But I don't need a crutch to be able to get through it. And again, if I had it'd be different if I had a diagnosis of something I don't, you know, I'm fortunate enough to not, you know, need to rely on any any depressants or anything. But I rely a lot on when I do have those bad moments, or when I have any feelings of doubt, anxiety, depression, like everybody else gets. For me, exercise has has become the way that I live, you know, sober and
Maureen (36:10.376)
Yes.
Kastle Donovan (36:13.87)
fit, that for me is my SSRI. And that's, I get so much out of that. I get a lot out of my women's hockey community. I've really thrown myself into that.
Maureen (36:20.605)
Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that, about what do you do for your sober fit living? So you beat me to the question. So yeah, I want to hear about that. Ice hockey, you grew up in California, how'd that happen? Okay.
Kastle Donovan (36:27.158)
Okay.
Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (36:34.306)
Well, it didn't in California. took meeting my husband out here, Garrett, on the East Coast. He's my hockey player. And that was one of the things that really, I remember one of our first dates that we ever went on was to the Smithsonian has that little ice rink on the mall, on the National Mall that they freeze over. And we were in DC at school and he said, let's go ice skating. Do you know how to ice skate? I yeah. And he came after work. He was working at a lobbying firm on K Street and came in a suit and tie and had his hockey skates slung over his shoulder.
Maureen (36:49.008)
yeah.
Maureen (36:52.669)
Have fun.
Maureen (37:02.47)
Adorable.
Kastle Donovan (37:04.24)
I was like, wow, that's really, he's so cute. And then he put them on and he's skating around this ring with his hands in his pockets like he's like Fred Astaire on ice skates, know, and I was just, wow, that's amazing, yeah. And, you know, as the years went by and we had kids after my second was born.
Maureen (37:11.539)
This is a movie.
Kastle Donovan (37:21.548)
I was really down. I was just in a funk. had gained a little weight. I still had the postpartum weight. And my second son was only six months old and Garrett said, I think you should take up hockey. I think that would be really, really good for you. And I was like, God, you're crazy. I don't think that that's something I could ever do. He lent me all his equipment. And I went, I started going to these skill sessions for beginner adults. Now you'd be surprised to know in our area, there is a very robust community of adult beginner hockey players and there's a lot of availability.
for lessons and skating and skill sessions and everything. So that's how it all started. And then it got good enough to be on a team and ended up starting a team. Yeah, mean, it just kind of snowballed from there.
Maureen (37:59.965)
Wow.
Kastle Donovan (38:06.272)
marathon running too and I've only done two marathons, but that was another way for me to push it and see what I was capable of doing physically. And I don't think I would have been able to work full time, breastfeed a baby, do any of those things, take care of two kids if I was still drinking. There's no way I could have gotten the runs in or committed myself to any of that stuff. There's no way. So, you know, through activity and through the exercise, it's given me a lot of personal fulfillment.
and autonomy and just a feeling of power, you know, that I don't need anything. I have everything I need, you know, in me ready.
Maureen (38:41.959)
Yeah, you use a good word because alcohol and it's actually been sold to us from the alcohol industry as empowering for women, but is actually disempowering in so many ways. And we are as women starting to drink as much as men and also starting to experience the same health problems as men from drinking. So I love how you use that word. You're doing other things, making other choices that are empowering and helping people to see that actually alcohol is taking away from their health.
and affecting them mentally, physically, you're substituting with other wonderful things. And ice hockey, that's just pretty badass, I think. I had no idea. Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (39:13.774)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Kastle Donovan (39:19.394)
Yeah. Thanks. Our team's really good too. Yeah, we're defending champions. Go Osprey. Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen (39:25.841)
So what would you say to someone or do you say to a patient or even some young people who might be listening to this and they're thinking, yeah, I'm drinking too much, but I don't know how to stop and I'm afraid and older patients too are thinking this.
Kastle Donovan (39:41.73)
Right. Right. Right. And I understand where that fear, the apprehension would come from. But I would just say if.
If you think you've got a problem, you owe it to yourself to stop and eliminate this one thing. You're worth it. You're worth it. And you have what it takes inside of you to not need this. You are just as funny. You are just as much fun. And you can have just as much fun as you were having before. And be the authentic person that you're happy being. And be who you want to be. Alcohol's not giving you anything that you don't
Maureen (40:19.922)
Mm -hmm.
Kastle Donovan (40:21.946)
already have inside of you. can still be goofy, silly, outgoing, courageous. You don't need, you can be uninhibited. You can be all of those things, but not cross those moral lines and boundaries that you might have to keep you at your true north. You know, you don't need to, you don't need to violate your own personal moral code to be funny, outgoing, all of those things. You have it in you already. You don't need it. Right.
Maureen (40:33.17)
Mm -hmm.
Maureen (40:46.584)
And those things take practice. If you've been drinking for years and years and years, you may not be able to hear that right away. But like anything else, it takes practice for you to show yourself like, yeah, there she is. There he is. He's in there.
Kastle Donovan (40:59.534)
Yeah, yeah. Give it to yourself for 30 days. Start with 30 and then see where it takes you from there. That would be my biggest piece of advice. And then don't ignore.
the health risks that are associated with even just a small amount of alcohol. They're real. They're real. And every single time you drink, you're putting your body through it a little bit, you know, and that can have a cumulative effect. So there is no such thing as a safe amount ultimately, you know, and especially for teenagers where, you know, your frontal lobe isn't even fully developed yet. It's really, there's a concern about the impulsivity that comes with that. Definitely, I remember in the trauma unit, much higher rates of drinking and driving. was almost always
Maureen (41:12.69)
real.
Maureen (41:22.546)
Yes.
Maureen (41:35.377)
Yes.
Kastle Donovan (41:42.192)
men or teenage boys age 16 to 25 those are our risk takers and it's because that frontal lobe isn't developed yet. Give it a chance let your body develop without the influence of alcohol wherever possible. Yeah.
Maureen (41:53.715)
Yeah, I love that advice. That's great. So, and I'll put in the show notes where Castle practices. So if you are in the Annapolis area and you want to maybe get a 90 day blood test, a basic and see, you know, where you are and give it a try. I think that's a great idea. That's a great idea for a program. So anything else you want to share Castle? I loved hearing your story and we could talk for a long time, but.
Kastle Donovan (42:06.695)
Yes.
Kastle Donovan (42:12.416)
Absolutely, I love that.
No, thank you so much. just, want to again, thank you for making this something that we can talk about. I mean, I am, I'm just grateful to you for giving it a platform and for being brave enough to, to, to make this a, your life's work. I think it's fantastic. And I admire you so much. And I'm grateful you've given me the courage to talk about my story and my journey with it, which, you know, now kind of to me seems like not that big of a deal, but it's, it's
Maureen (42:23.101)
Thank you.
Maureen (42:40.066)
it's big. It is.
Kastle Donovan (42:43.103)
Well, thank you. I think it wouldn't help anybody, then it's worth it to talk about it. So thank you again so much.
Maureen (42:44.881)
Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much. And I will look forward to seeing you in Annapolis soon.
Kastle Donovan (42:56.236)
Yes, Lake Ice Marine.
