Maureen (00:04.57)
Your Sober Fit Life podcast. I am so excited today. I have a guest on that I've been wanting to meet in person who's inspired me quite a bit and her name is Katie Seppi. Katie is the founder of the Childless Collective, which is an organization that I just found out about in the last year dedicated to creating supportive communities for individuals who are childless, not by choice or circumstance.
With a background in community organizing, Katie has built a space where childless people can connect, access support, and share their experiences. Through her work, she addresses the common themes of grief, loss, and identity struggles that many in the childless community face. Katie's efforts provide a beacon of hope and solidarity, helping people navigate their journeys with understanding and compassion. So with all that, want to welcome you, Katie.
to the podcast.
Katy (01:04.752)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk to
Maureen (01:08.422)
Thank you. Yeah, I said to Katie, before we started recording, I bet you're wondering why I asked you on your Sober Fitlife podcast. And as many of you know, if you've listened to my earlier episodes, my drinking story actually started around my grief, around not being able to have children. And it was all very subconscious then. I didn't understand my grief. I didn't know I could grieve.
And I didn't know how to express it because everyone around me was, my friends were all having children and building families and nobody really understood what I was going through. So I sort of developed this persona as a party girl, someone who was, didn't care, who was carefree. And I'd be your friend you could go out with when you got a babysitter and drink on the weekends. But really I was really in a lot of pain. I was really pretty sad for a decade.
just not understanding. And then of course, over time when you drink like that, I was a binge drinker, but when you drink over time and tie it to grief or sadness, you would develop a level of addiction, which I didn't understand. But as many of you know, I'm almost three years now alcohol -free and having removed that substance from my life, I can look back on that decade and realize I did not grieve. I did not go through the grief process.
and I didn't understand that I could, that I was allowed to. So when I first found Katie, it was through a book called The Unexpected Life by Jody Day, who is one of the original founders of this whole movement. And I'm let Katie explain how she then became the founder of the Childless Collective and let her take it from there. And Katie, would you share your story of how you ended up where you are now?
Katy (03:03.952)
Yeah, sure. So, oh, where to start? Well, I came to be childless through infertility was kind of my path to, you know what, led me here And in 2017, I ended up having a hysterectomy and that was kind of the end of my like trying to pursue parenthood. It was kind of the, I'm not having kids. What does that mean for me? And I just felt...
really lonely. Like it was something that I didn't really have people around that I felt like I could just fully like talk to about what I was going through and that really understood it and could meet me the way that I needed them to. And so I started originally with a blog and an Instagram account that was called Chasing Creation. And I did a lot through that name for about four years where
I hosted a lot of online events to try to bring people together and I hosted monthly peer support groups. And that's also where I got the idea to host the first Childless Collective Summit. And so I hosted my first summit three years ago, four years ago, yeah, four years ago, and have been hosting those annually, which has been really fun, a nice way to bring kind of a lot of people in the childless community together all at once.
And then two years ago, I heard from Jody Day, who had started, you know, Gateway Women and was running the Gateway Women online community. And she asked if that was something that I wanted to kind of take over as host on because she had some other projects she was wanting to focus on. So that shift happened about two years ago. And that's what kind of brought me
doing my own projects part time in the Childless community to having this be now my full time work that I do for the last two years of just creating different events and ways for people to connect and find community kind of all under this umbrella of the Childless Collective.
Maureen (05:14.364)
That's incredible. You you started out with this personal blog and then you end up running the Childless Collective. Can you tell people how many women or I don't know, are there men too in the Childless Collective?
Katy (05:26.608)
So the Childless Collective is a name that I use for all the work that I do within the childless community. So some things that I do are events that are open to anyone, they're open to the public. So for example, the summits that I've run have had a combined attendance of over 8 ,500 people who have attended those the last few years. And that has been a mix of all genders and circumstances that bring you to being childless. Those, again, are open to the public. So really, it's a wide range.
And then the Childless Collective Online Community, which is a private, closed community. That one, we have about 750 -ish members there right now, and it's open to women and non -binary
Maureen (06:12.208)
And these are people all over the world I've discovered from getting on
Katy (06:15.852)
Yes, and I think because Jody Day started that originally under Gateway Women, she's in the UK. So I think that it started with a lot of UK members, although there have always been, I think, a lot of members in the US. And then also, we'll get people from other countries too. So yeah, it is a pretty wide diverse range of people that we get there, which is really fun.
Maureen (06:42.736)
Yeah, it's incredible. Getting into that group and realizing there were women all over the world like me was, can't explain the feeling I had that I finally wasn't alone. And that's why this is a passion project for me to get this word out because I think there are a lot of women like me who are masking their grief, camouflaging their grief, whether it's with alcohol or...
some other numbing type of behavior or unhealthy coping mechanism. You know, and I wanted to ask, you hear that or see that in your experience with people saying maybe for years they didn't deal with this and now they're figuring out how to through your collective?
Katy (07:27.738)
Yeah, I mean, I think that's actually really common for a lot of reasons. think one is that we don't always recognize, like you said, that it's something that needs our attention or that we need to really tend to. And if we do recognize it, we don't always know how to. So I know with me, I was clearly grieving, you know, once I had a name for it and I could look up what does grieving look like? It seems so obvious in retrospect that I was grieving.
But at the time I didn't have a name for it. I just knew that, you know, I was crying a lot and just felt a lack of desire to do things I normally find enjoyment in and just, you know, like really struggling, disconnecting from people that I loved and not wanting to be around anyone. Like, you know, there were these things that were showing up, but I didn't, I think for me, because I went through infertility.
it was easy to kind of put it into something like, it's because of this that I'm feeling this way. But I still didn't really understand it completely or know how to process it. And, you know, I think especially for people who maybe there's not, you know, my hysterectomy was like such a final, like this is it. I have like a date that is the end of my pursuing parenthood journey. And I think for a lot of people that, you know, if you are a childless and student being single or
there are so many other reasons where it may not be this hard day of like, this is the day. And so I think then too, it might be a little bit harder to kind of pinpoint and process where those feelings are coming from and connect them to being childless. But I think for a lot of people, it's very common when people come into the community and are introducing themselves that I've heard people say,
Maureen (09:02.618)
Yes.
Katy (09:16.42)
you know, this is the first time where I've ever spoken this out loud. Like I've never told anyone that I'm childless, not by choice, or that this is something that I'm grieving. you know, maybe their friends and family think that they are maybe child free by choice, like they didn't want kids, or maybe they just haven't really thought about it much at all. But I think for a lot of people that grief ends up being very isolated and something a lot of people are processing internally and don't really.
Maureen (09:19.622)
Yes.
Katy (09:44.332)
show to other people and maybe not even fully show to themselves.
Maureen (09:50.032)
Yeah, let's talk about those terms because as I said, for me it was between my almost 30s and 40s. I had not heard the term childless not by choice or circumstance. And therefore for me there was a lot of like guilt and shame or something's wrong with me. I'm less than, I'm not like other women. And even other people don't know how to respond to you. You know, they're like, keep trying, don't try so hard. Maybe you shouldn't work
maybe, you know, all kinds of advice people offer you, well -meaning and some just really ignorant, right? So, but I think having that vocabulary is just so freeing. And I did a kind of three -day workshop during Mother's Day and I was amazed at women who got back to me said, I'd never heard that, childless, not by choice. I didn't know what to call myself.
Katy (10:24.09)
Yeah.
Maureen (10:49.318)
Yeah.
Katy (10:49.402)
Yeah, I mean, I think the labels can be tricky because I personally don't think that we have enough terminology to really describe our situations. And I use childless in the work that I do with Childless Collective. And I see it as a term that can help to bring people together in terms of like, if someone is
searching for community or to connect with others who've experienced this, that is kind of like the standard term that people use. But I actually don't know anyone that likes that as a term. there's, you know, I don't use it personally. Like when I'm, if someone asks me if I have kids or is wanting me to talk about my situation, I'll usually just, I don't really like to put a label on it. I'll say, you know, I wanted kids and I couldn't have them. So for me, the importance of the labels is that they allow us
find each other. And so when I'm hosting events or with the community, I really wanted it to have a name that people could use to find each other. they're, if either, you know, you're Googling or you're looking for something that's often the word that will first get used, even if it's one that not everybody loves. And then of course there's child free, which some people in the community, people who wanted kids and couldn't have them will use the term child free as well.
Maureen (12:04.059)
Yes.
Katy (12:11.12)
But if you're looking kind of at the like more standard definition, it usually applies to people who chose not to have kids. It was their first choice. And so there's a lot of conversation within the communities of who gets to use what label and who does it apply to and what does it mean? So I think it can get really nuanced and, you know, there's a lot of conversations I think happening around the labels. To me, I feel like for people personally, if you feel like you need a label attached to
you know, use what you're comfortable with and what works for you. I don't think that those two child free, childless labels, there's so many situations that I feel like don't neatly fit into those categories of didn't want, couldn't have. You know, there's a lot of complicated experiences that we have and complicated feelings and not everything fits so tidily. But I guess like the short version of this I would say is that
Maureen (12:54.672)
Yeah. Yes.
Katy (13:09.422)
I don't think we have enough terminology yet. I think that these conversations will keep evolving and maybe we'll develop language around it that feels like more of a fit for people. But yeah, for right now, you know, I use childless in my work as a way to, for us to find each other really is what I see as a purpose.
Maureen (13:28.4)
I actually found a lot of freedom in it instead of going, how much do I tell them? What do I say? I wanted them, I couldn't have them, I tried to adopt, I tried IVF. Do I go into that? Do I not? Instead, I just tried it out when I heard the term. I tried it out on people and said, I'm childless, not by choice. And people went, wait a minute, what is that? And I thought it was a way to enlighten people without me going through all this inner turmoil. So I found it very freeing. It reminds me of in the...
alcohol community, people who are stopping alcohol, do they need to label themselves an alcoholic or are they just saying, I want to take a break from alcohol? And it's really, think, whatever you find the most comfort in, you whatever works for you. But joining your community, I then also heard another term, childless by circumstance. And that was enlightening to me because I had only known about my own path of infertility and failed adoption. And there's this whole other, as you said,
spectrum of people who for whatever reason, it could have been physical, timing, partners didn't work out, all kinds of things that women all of sudden find themselves in the same situation as me for different reasons and you, childless.
Katy (14:42.66)
Yeah, there's such a wide, there's such a wide, like amount of reasons that people who want kids end up not having them. And that's something that I've really learned over the last seven years, just getting to meet so many different people within the community and hearing so many different stories is that it is, it is a very, yeah, it's, it's kind of a, a wide tent community. And there are things
are different throughout our experiences. And then there are certain things I think that a lot of us kind of share in common too, and how we navigate the world and some of ways that the world might react to us and some of the things that we experience. There's like those commonalities and then there are a lot of things that make each person's journey unique too.
Maureen (15:28.848)
Yeah, and that's what I love about what you did inside of the collective. So you've got the whole big community and then you can actually look in there and find subgroups. Maybe you have more affinity to one group or another. I found people in my area, which was really cool. And also I joined a Christian group, but I there's all kinds of groups in there, like LGBTQ, different nationalities. It's like you've really thought of everything so that people can then find their sub-
groups. You know, we can relate to the whole community and then like break it down even further.
Katy (16:04.196)
Yeah, mean, so the kind of format of the community was really, I have to give credit to Jody there, because a lot of what exists now is the structure that she kind of put in place there. But yeah, I agree. It works really well. think that having that kind of shared space for everybody to have a place to connect and talk about the things that we share in common.
And then also having those kind of more private spaces of the subgroups for people to connect around different experiences that they've had or different identities or interests. It's really nice to be able to have those kinds of smaller groups to have those discussions too.
Maureen (16:41.946)
Yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it. You know, and for me, what I realized through therapy and not drinking and then reading Jodi's book and some others is it wasn't so much not being able to have children. That was certainly hard, but the loss of identity, like, well, who am I and who am I going to be? And how do I now fit into this world of mother -centric, what does Jodi call it?
thinking the term pronatalism, there's another term I learned. Yeah, that is such a big issue, I think, for so many, like who am I now? And how do you deal with that in the community?
Katy (17:11.898)
pronatalism. Yeah.
Katy (17:23.248)
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's a huge one that comes up. I think, you know, for me, I, when I, when I had to reckon with the fact that I wasn't going to have kids, like I knew that that was going to be maybe the hardest thing that I've ever had to deal with in process on my own. And I think the part that I really wasn't expecting was how, how much it, how much like societal factors influence that, like having to unpack.
things that I've been told my whole life by people around me and what like those messages that I was getting from society about what it meant to be a mom or not a mom and what that meant about me and my place within the world or within society and just the, the constantness of having to respond to it. Like, you know, at the last summit we had a panel on identity and one of the things that came up was why do we have to think so much
something that actually isn't a part of our identity in the sense that like we're not a mom. So it's like the absence of something, but yet we still have to figure out our identity around motherhood or non -motherhood. And a lot of it is because you're so confronted all the time. Like if you are, you know, of childbearing age, once you, especially once you get into like your thirties and forties, there's just like an expectation that you have kids.
And so it's often like the first question you get asked if you meet someone new or when you go to different events, things are going to focus around a lot of times the kids, like a lot of kids centric stuff or conversations with if you're in a group of women, a lot of times the conversation is going to go to kids. So I think that's the part that threw me off. Yeah, that's yes.
Maureen (19:02.278)
Absolutely.
Maureen (19:13.212)
And then stay there for like an hour to like stay, stay there. And you you ask all the polite questions and you try to be a part of it, but when it keeps going and that's when I think I'd be like, another drink please, you know, because I would didn't know how to continue to participate with a smile on my face. You know, it was really a struggle. So I think that identity question is huge and that's what you offer.
Katy (19:24.665)
Yeah.
Maureen (19:42.032)
by people joining the collective and seeing other women like themselves, they're like, I do have a place. I do have sisters. I'm not alone. And I think that's just massive benefit. And then I also wanted to ask you about disenfranchised grief, which was another one that just was like mind blowing for me. like, that's why I didn't understand my own grief. Because if someone
a baby that passes away, which is terrible, or my father passed away, or a pet passes away. There's a tangible loss and people see it and identify it. But when you had maybe a couple of months, weeks, or even just the idea in your head that you were going to have a baby and it never came to fruition, you're grieving something that other people can't understand because it wasn't tangible to them.
and I didn't know how to label it. So I thought, well, what's wrong with you? Get over it. Just like everybody else kind of felt. But that disenfranchised grief term was like, okay. So could you explain that a little bit more?
Katy (20:51.962)
Yeah, I mean, I think I first heard this term from Jody Day as well in the context of being childless and then looked into some of the kind of psychologists who kind of coined the term and where it came from. yeah, so disenfranchised grief is basically a grief that isn't kind of widely understood or acknowledged by society. So I think this definitely comes up within the childless community of just, like you said, people having a hard time.
really wrapping their heads around how big of a loss this can be for us if it's something that, like you said, it's not something we had that then got taken away or that we lost. It's the loss of a dream. It's a loss of the hopes that you have for your future. It's a loss of that identity that you hope to hold in the future. And those are a bit more abstract. And so I think it's common for maybe people to not
fully understand or treat it the same way as they would maybe a more like tangible type of loss. And I think, you know, I've heard a lot of people who have said that, you know, maybe people around them are supportive, but they don't seem to understand just how long it can impact them, that it's kind of like a lifelong, it can be a lifelong grief and that it's going to come up around certain times and that there's an expectation like, aren't you over this already?
Maureen (22:12.079)
Absolutely.
Katy (22:18.821)
that they don't really understand why certain things may bring up those emotions and those feelings of grief.
Maureen (22:25.328)
Yeah, that's another thing to discuss is holidays, certainly Mother's Day, Christmas, so family -centric, commercials, you know, all of that. And then even our different stages of life as my friends, obviously all first got pregnant, that was hard, and then, you know, first day of school, all these kind of transitions and life -changing moments, we don't get to be part of that club.
And you're sort of standing on the outside looking in and trying to figure out how to respond, how to react. You can always be the aunt, you know, or the friend, but it's never quite the same. And knowing that, that can even hit you all the way up to like, now, like I said, I'm almost 59 and, you know, certainly I probably, lot of my friends are becoming grandparents now. And so then you go through the sort of loss again at all these different stages.
Katy (23:23.054)
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And I think that you definitely see that within the online community, within the Childless Collective of people sharing those moments that are really difficult for them and how that changes across the lifespan. And hearing from a lot of people who will say, I kind
felt like I had gotten through the worst of my grief and then I was doing really well for a while and then all my friends started having grandkids and then it was like this new thing that I wasn't expecting of like now I have this like kind of new set of circumstances to have to deal with that that's bringing everything up again. So yeah, I think like you said to a lot of a lot of our rituals and ceremonies and you know with holidays or with just life milestones. A lot of those are centered around kids and
It can be hard to feel like you can't fully participate or aren't fully accepted or that, you know, those kind of traditions that we have don't apply to you. And so it's I think that that's where that society piece comes in, right? Of these expectations and you kind of just feeling like you don't quite fit into them. And so I think that's where having community and being around others who understand what you're going through can be really helpful because, you know, we'll have conversations about,
let's talk about how we can maybe like adapt some of the traditions that you love around holiday so that they're a better fit for you and what your life looks like right now. And, you know, how can you build in some support that you may not get on a really hard day like Christmas or Mother's Day? So we try to be really aware of those things within the community and build in some extra support around those days and have conversations about, you how do we kind of reclaim some of these things so that we can.
feel joy in them and that we can navigate maybe some of the more awkward social aspects or the parts that make us feel left out. Like are there things we could adjust or change that would help with that? So it's kind of hard because I think it would be nice if the world could change and be more acknowledging. And it's so ingrained that I don't see that happening anytime soon. So a lot of, think the, for me, it's like, how can we?
Katy (25:42.372)
how can we try to make adjustments or very small changes that will help us kind of navigate the world in an easier way, knowing it's not really set up for us,
Maureen (25:52.442)
I love that though because you help people reframe and have a mind shift if they can around certain things and kind of work together. And you always put out posts like, so what's everybody doing this weekend? Or, you you kind of get a chat going. And I think that's great, know, as Brene Brown says, vulnerability kills shame. So when we come together and we share our pain and our struggles and realize we're not alone, that's just, it makes all the difference in the world.
So what you're doing is bringing, is trying to change, you know, the narrative and help make people more aware.
Katy (26:30.34)
Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely doing my best. I just feel like it's harder to break through to like people who aren't already childless, know, like it's hard to get people to care, think, in a substantive way where they actually really want to get it. so, yeah, it's hard, think, those conversations outside of the community with just like general public trying to raise awareness, but I do try.
Maureen (26:32.678)
He
Maureen (26:54.97)
Yeah, I mean it is, but what it's nice is you can go back into the community, get your sort of filled up and you are more fortified to go back out there, let's say, and deal with some of the questions and things that happened or the feeling of not fitting in because you know you have a group of women that get you. And I wanted to share with you along those lines the first time I got on one of your online summits and I got on a Zoom group.
Katy (27:16.623)
Yeah, for
Maureen (27:25.264)
There were about six other women. I couldn't speak at first. I'm like, my gosh, there's six other women like me. And even now when I think of it, I am brought to tears because that's just so important. So I hope to help you get this message out to younger women who are struggling with this, that they don't have to be alone and isolate or numb like I did, and hide their feelings. There is a
and it's called the Childless Collective with Katie Seppi. And I wanted to know if you would talk a little bit about some of the summits you have. You even had a live summit for the first time. So maybe you could share what that looks like so people know how they can participate and join.
Katy (28:12.58)
Yeah, for sure. So my summits are going to be on hiatus for a while because they, I love doing them. And I also don't have there. I haven't found a way to make them sustainable. They are so much work and money to put on and I haven't really found a way to make them like viable to continue. So I'm definitely putting a pause on them for a while. Probably not indefinitely, but I need a little bit of time from them, but they have been really incredible.
Maureen (28:27.505)
I bet.
Katy (28:42.32)
I've hosted three online summits. have been like virtual events over a few days and they typically I'll bring between like, think somewhere between like 25 and 40 speakers together so that we really cover like a wide range of topics related to being childless and different perspectives, different experiences. And then I'll usually host some events to like
kind of socializing and we'll do like an online community during those online events too. those have been really cool. And like I said, it's brought together like a combined 8 ,500 attendees and over a hundred speakers. to me, those are something I'm really proud of as a way to just have a few days during the year that like so many in our community can come together for that support, not just with like the attendees, but also the speakers, because I always say like,
It's so important to find people who can talk about this in a way that resonates with you. And so I love being able to hear who's out there talking about this and invite them to come speak so that they can find their people and I can help to just let people know that there's more than just the Childless Collective out there for support too. There's so many people out here doing really good work and that you can find and connect with to help support you.
The first in -person summit was really cool. It happened in April of this year and we brought together almost 100 people in Charleston, South Carolina. And it was two days of kind of more conference style stuff. And then the third day I just rented a big beach pavilion and we had a beach day and it was super fun. It's something I've been dreaming about for just years. it, like you said, being on like a zoom call
other people where like you know that everyone in the room is also like childless is a very like it's a very powerful and like interesting experience because it's something we don't experience in real life very often. But then experiencing like almost 100 people in the same room who all didn't have kids was like whole nother level of like oh my gosh this is wild. So it was very cool and a lot of people in both settings I've said like you know I just was able to
Maureen (30:47.481)
It is.
Katy (31:03.78)
breathe a little easier and just knowing that like no one's going to ask if I had kids or that like that wasn't going to come up was just, I think, such a relief to people. So it was very fun to experience.
Maureen (31:15.344)
Well, we will look forward to whenever you're ready to do another one. I can imagine that it takes a lot of work, but in the meantime, I would encourage people to look into the Childless Collective and Katie's group. It's just fantastic. How do people find you or the Childless Collective?
Katy (31:34.362)
Yeah, thank you. So you can just go to childlesscollective .com is the website and it has all the information there about the community and how to join. And then I haven't been on it as much lately, but I am on Instagram. It's kind of my favorite platform and the only one that I'm on outside of that. And that's just at Childless Collective too.
Maureen (31:55.086)
@childlesscollective Childless Collective is your Instagram. Yeah, check out Katie's Instagram. You'll just see so many encouraging things and know you're not alone. And I'm one of those people out here who's trying to get that message across and especially to obviously a group of women or people like me who are not in touch with what that grief is and they're numbing. So, you know, just want everybody to know there's a place that you can go, the Childless Collective. And Katie, I just want
Katy (31:57.998)
Yeah.
Maureen (32:20.944)
Thank you so much for coming on. It's been an honor for me to meet you in person. And I'm just so grateful for the work that you
Katy (32:28.784)
Thank you so much for having me and for being a part of the online community and for having this podcast because it's such an important topic that you're covering and I have no doubt it's helping a ton of people. So thank you for all the work that you're doing.
Maureen (32:43.334)
Thank you, I appreciate
