Maureen (00:02)
You guys, welcome to another episode of Sober Fit Life. I am so thrilled to introduce you all to someone very special to me, my niece, Lisa Cordasco And Lisa is not just my niece, but she is an amazing therapist, I guess I'm going to say that word. But Lisa has been working in behavioral health for over a decade and is one of the co-founders of Rewired Path Counseling and Consultation in New Jersey.
She found her calling in this field after building a foundation in her own recovery and she's been helping others heal ever since. Lisa is a licensed clinical social worker and clinical alcohol and drug counselor with a master's from Fordham University. Beyond her expertise in addiction, she's trained in complex trauma, grief, and the mind-body connection, which we all know is so important. Her approach is definitely compassionate yet firm, and I know this, being her aunt.
and she's all about finding balance and growth. Outside of work, Lisa is an adventurer at heart. She loves sunrise yoga, nature, creative expression, and traveling the world with her daughter, spouse, and even their pet pug, and sometimes her aunt Maureen. She is someone who truly cherishes life's little moments and I cannot wait for you all to hear Lisa's perspective today.
Lisa, I am so happy to have you here. I am just really excited for you to share your story and your knowledge and how you got to where you are now from where you were.
Lisa (01:29)
Thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited to be here with you. you know, what an honor and what a special privilege to have been able to watch you grow all of this and really create this wonderful platform as part of your own journey. You know, it's really inspiring. So it's it means a lot for me to be able to be here with you.
Maureen (01:50)
Thank you. means so much for me to have you here too. I watched, you know, you were younger going through your journey and then I went through it later and you've been such an inspiration to me. And then we've connected over this, which is honestly, I guess your aunt was too busy drinking and partying to notice what was going on. It wasn't until I removed alcohol from my life that I...
Lisa (01:56)
Okay.
Maureen (02:15)
I see so many people differently and you and I have this connection and I really value it. So I would love if you would share with our audience just a little bit about your story and how you got to where you are in your incredible career of helping others. And I love the name of your counseling, Rewired Path Counseling and Consultation So can you give us a little overview of Lisa and how you got to where you are now?
Lisa (02:37)
Thank you.
Sure, yeah. mean, you know, like you just spoke to, mean, our family has such a long history of struggles with substance use, with depression, with anxiety, with generational trauma, right? Like most people's families. And yeah, where my story might be a little bit different than some of the other people that you've had on here as guests.
Maureen (02:58)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (03:10)
is that I did come into recovery at a really young age. Now, of course, I look at that as such a blessing. I feel so incredibly grateful and fortunate that I came into recovery very young. I got clean when I was 19 years old right before my 20th birthday. So I've never had a legal drink, had plenty of illegal ones.
Maureen (03:18)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Lisa (03:38)
Yeah, I mean, I think that that's something you don't hear all that often. But it was still a really long journey. You know, I started using substances when I was about 12 years old. And I started with alcohol. And, you know, I progressed really quickly to much bigger and badder substances because that wasn't doing the trick anymore. And, you know, so what
precipitated me finding recovery was really such incredible desperation and such hopelessness and brokenness. By the time I was 19, I was addicted to heroin and cocaine. I was an IV user before I even left high school. And all the while really working very hard to maintain this image of being okay.
I was a straight A student while addicted to heroin. It was not an easy mask to keep up. And eventually it started to crumble. And kind of towards the end, all of those things that I didn't think would happen started to happen. Getting arrested and your dad, my grandfather having to
Maureen (04:42)
Right.
Lisa (05:07)
come to the rescue, right, and help me. And, you know, I ended up in a lot of really unsafe situations, but I really didn't care. I mean, I had so much disregard for my own wellbeing by that point. I had so much self-hatred, you know, that was a big part for me of what fueled my substance use was just really not caring about myself and not being able to see
Maureen (05:10)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Lisa (05:36)
the good or the hope or the possibility. And also so much shame, you know, I mean, I was, I was terribly ashamed of the way I was living, of everything I was doing. You know, and I tried so hard to like hold on to that maintaining that secret, right? Or maintaining this disguise of normalcy when it was just so obvious that, that I wasn't okay, you know.
Maureen (05:41)
Yes.
That's so exhausting, isn't it too? Like trying to maintain that mask and that normalcy and yeah.
Lisa (06:07)
Yeah, yeah, it's excruciating. It's so exhausting. You know, so I think kind of by the end, there's almost like that relief in everything just exploding and coming apart like it did, where it was like, you know, on one hand, so humiliating and embarrassing and shameful, right? And then on the other hand, just that relief of like, okay, well, now it's finally now it's finally out there, right? Now I can finally
Maureen (06:20)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (06:36)
stop pretending to be okay when I'm really not okay, you know? And yeah, and so, you know, I ended up, I ended up going to treatment and I had a positive experience there, but there were still a lot of things that I wasn't ready to change about behaviors, you know? And so I did, you know, have a little bit more research to do, right?
Maureen (07:00)
Sure, yeah.
Lisa (07:02)
you know, trying things my way and, you know, eventually then did kind of come to this place of realizing that there were so many more things that I needed to look at and to change in order to be well. And I was afraid, you know, was really afraid to look at those patterns. I was really afraid to look at myself. But when that just pain became so great, right, I was willing to do it. And so that's what I did. Right. So I
You know, I started on my.
Maureen (07:32)
Yeah, the, what do they say? When the pain of changing finally becomes greater than the pain of staying the same. Yeah.
Lisa (07:37)
huh.
Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. And that's when we kind of come to that crossroad of like, okay, what am I going to do here? You know, and I am a member of 12 step program. And, know, 12 step program has definitely saved my life and changed my life and, you know, given me the tools that I've needed to learn how to live, you know, you know, and again, where
I guess my experience and my story of coming to recovery at such a young age might be different than some of the other people that have on here is I didn't have an identity or a life to really recover, right? It was really about creating it. Yeah.
Maureen (08:26)
Hmm. Interesting. But that gives you so much empathy, everything you just said for all the people you now help, all that you went through and even as you said, where you still had to figure things out on your own and do more research and until, so you have so much empathy for the people that you're helping, because I'm sure that happens a lot. And did you ever think, you know, as you were in recovery that you would then become a therapist and help
Lisa (08:36)
Yeah.
yeah.
Maureen (08:56)
others do exactly what someone helped you do.
Lisa (09:00)
Initially, no. mean, you know, it's funny in your email that you had sent me with, you know, kind of just what to expect with this. One of the questions you had put in there was about kind of what brought me to working in this field. And I was reflecting on that because, you know, a lot of times I kind of tell that story of like, it was this like serendipitous thing, right? Or maybe it was like a higher power moment. I had, I don't know, probably somewhere around six months or so clean and
just had no idea what I was gonna do with my life. And I knew I wanted to go back to college because I had done a year of college and I had messed up my scholarship and really, yeah. So I knew I wanted to go back to school. I knew I wanted to do something, right? But I wasn't sure what and I started kind of looking at one of the
Maureen (09:46)
Yep, I remember that.
Lisa (09:59)
the local universities. did my I ended up doing my undergraduate in social work at Georgia Court University, which is a small at the time, it was still a women's college. Now it's coed. But I was looking at their website and kind of just like looking at different majors and like, what do I want to do? What? What can I see myself doing? What would be fulfilling? Right? Because I was trying to figure out what my purpose would be, you know, and I mean, that's something we could. Yeah.
Maureen (10:24)
yeah. Can I stop you there? Like, isn't that a part of drinking and doing drugs? I know for me, I really didn't know who I was. I couldn't have children. I felt very much like I didn't have a purpose. Like, is that a theme that you see so much? Yeah.
Lisa (10:31)
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Totally. Yeah, I mean, we could just go on and on about talking about that piece of it. And that piece of, of recovery and healing, right is finding purpose. And so that's what I was looking for. And I had no idea what that was going to look like. And I stumbled across social work. And I was like, what the heck is this? You know, no idea what that is never heard of it before. And I started kind of reading about it. And, and it spoke to me.
Maureen (10:46)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (11:08)
You know, but I think the other piece of that that I don't often talk about is it spoke to me with the familiarity that I don't think entirely initially came from a healthy place. because my whole life, I was always very sensitive and very empathetic, to others, right? I was also always very critical of myself.
Maureen (11:21)
Interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (11:35)
But when it came to other people, I was really good at being compassionate and being loving and being a caretaker. And I learned that at a really early age to focus on other people as a way to avoid and run from what I was experiencing in myself. So I think that social work really kind of spoke to that natural skill that I had my whole life.
Maureen (11:57)
Right?
Lisa (12:05)
which again, you know, initially didn't really come from the healthiest of places. It was like, do for others, help other people give to others, be of service to others. can do that. Right. I'm really good at that. I've been, you know, doing that since I was little.
Maureen (12:15)
Yeah.
But I think it also really helps, you know, when you're in recovery, or for me, removing alcohol, recovery from alcohol, helping others helps me stay in it. And like, yeah, that's right. This is why I don't want to drink anymore. And this is what I want to help other people with. even though you think you might initially have gotten into it for maybe not so altruistic reasons, you know, it's obviously grown from that because you're phenomenal at what you do.
Lisa (12:36)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that was such a huge part of where my healing journey had to continue and evolve from there, right? So, you know, we do get that messaging as part of recovery and being of service to other people and being connected to other people is so important in healing. But there has to be balance, right? So much of my
Maureen (12:55)
you
Yes.
Lisa (13:12)
life existed in these extremes in my behavior patterns. Everything was very black and white, you know, all or nothing. And so I had to figure out how to have like a sense of balance there. So okay, how do I show up for other people and be compassionate and empathetic towards other people? And how do I also take care of myself, right, and have boundaries and treat myself with the same respect and compassion that I would treat other people with?
So that was something that came along the way. Yeah.
Maureen (13:43)
Yeah, I've experienced that too. I get that like, cause you can get easily emotionally dysregulated taking care of everybody else and forgetting all the structure and the habits and the things that you've learned that you learned early in recovery that you need to do to take care of yourself. And then, you know, all of a sudden you're too focused on taking care of others and you're not, you're not, you know, putting back into your own well. So yeah, I definitely, I think that happens a lot in caretaker syndromes, but also therapists, coaches. Yeah, I can relate to that.
Lisa (13:50)
Yeah.
Definitely.
Maureen (14:12)
That's interesting though, I never heard that part of your story.
Lisa (14:12)
Absolutely. It's the wounded healer thing, right? You know, so many of us that are drawn towards healing professions, it comes from that place of our own woundedness, right? And again, that can be a beautiful thing, right, of being able to really transmute that pain, right, and to turn it into a purpose and a connection. But when that's not in a place of balance, when that's left unchecked,
Maureen (14:17)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (14:42)
that can be really painful and really damaging, right?
Maureen (14:46)
Yeah.
Yeah, I know over the years, your things that you do to take care of yourself has evolved and I definitely want to get to that because I'm so interested in that. I want to flip to another topic for a minute because I think it all relates. All the work you've done on trauma and grief and the mind-body connection, because you pursued additional training in trauma and grief and the mind-body. How has that helped you shape your approach to healing? And what is the importance of addressing trauma?
Lisa (14:51)
you know.
Maureen (15:20)
in recovery.
Lisa (15:22)
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a perfect kind of segueing connection there. So, you know, as I kind of continued in my studies and in my profession, I started really learning about complex trauma and really understanding how that shows up and how that showed up for me. And so, where complex trauma is a little bit different than what we typically think of when we talk about PTSD, right? So a lot of times when you say PTSD or trauma,
Maureen (15:25)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (15:49)
people think of these really big singular events, right? So, you know, life is pretty good. And then all of a sudden this big thing happens that just rocks your world and is really shocking, devastating, and pushes you outside your limits. Complex trauma on the other hand is where somebody's experienced something repetitively, where it becomes their normal, right? So really good examples of that are growing up in a home environment with a
Maureen (15:59)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (16:19)
parent that abuses substances, or growing up in a home environment with a parent that is mentally ill, or where there's abuse or domestic violence between your parents and caregivers, or growing up in a community where there's, you know, there's violence or a lack of safety, or, you know, experiencing neglect or being in your own domestic violence relationship for an extended period of time, right? So these things where people are exposed to
this repetitive distress that their system doesn't know how to tolerate, but has to adapt to learn how to tolerate because there's no escape from it.
Maureen (17:02)
And those adaptions tend to be not healthy, right, typically.
Lisa (17:05)
Correct. Yeah, exactly. Correct. Right. So a lot of times one of the biggest ways that people kind of adapt to those things is by disconnection from their self. So that could be disconnecting from their physical body. That could be disconnecting from their own emotions. That caretaking behavior that we spoke about a moment ago, that's a big way that you see complex trauma show up for a lot of people. It's a way to avoid dealing with...
Maureen (17:21)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (17:32)
the distress that's happening within ourselves to focus on others, right? But it creates that disconnection, right? Now I don't even know who I am or what I feel or what I want or what I need or what my boundaries are, right?
Maureen (17:46)
And the complex trauma, I mean, from my lay understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, though, it's sort of like the frog in the boiling water. Like it's happened over time and for so long that they don't really know. You don't really know that that's what's happened.
Lisa (17:54)
Mm, yes.
Yes.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. mean, I can't even tell you how many of my clients come in initially. you know, when I even start to use the word trauma, they're like, well, that's not, you know, it wasn't that bad. know, right. And then as we kind of talk about those things more and really begin to explore it, it's like, wow, yeah, maybe, maybe it was that bad. Maybe it really did impact me. Maybe it is okay to acknowledge that.
Maureen (18:13)
Yes.
Because that was their normal, right? That was their normal. And so they would think maybe everybody else is going through this and why should I reach out? And that fear of vulnerability too and shame, right? It's all wrapped up in there.
Lisa (18:30)
Yes, totally.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, you know, so started kind of learning about these things and really understanding the way that that affects people. know, I'm a bit of a brain geek, right? So I love really understanding the brain and the nervous system. And I started to kind of delve more into understanding that will, will why like, why do these symptoms show up for people? Why do we react in these ways? What
Maureen (18:54)
Yeah, I love that.
Lisa (19:08)
creates all of this. And, you know, it's really fascinating stuff. And it's understanding how complex our bodies and our brains are and how amazing they are in helping us to survive different situations and to adapt. And how that can really kind of backfire on us in other ways, right. But the hopeful piece is that
Maureen (19:12)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Lisa (19:37)
All of that is stuff we can work with, right? So the, mentioned the name of the practice, my practice that I co-own with my two partners, Rewired Path. But the reason why we chose that name is it's a little bit of a nod to that neurobiology piece, right? So, you yeah, we've created these neural pathways and they're always going to be there, right? But we can rewire those things, right? We can create new pathways. There is neuroplasticity. We can heal, we can grow, we can change.
Maureen (19:59)
Yes.
Yeah, that geeky science thing runs in our family. And I didn't realize it until I started looking into drinking, why is it so hard for me to stop and understanding neuroplasticity, neural pathways, you know, and that I could make new neural pathways. But one of the things I, and this again, Lisa is so much more experienced, you know, I'm just a coach, but that's why I love to dig into her really smart brain, but neural pathways. So one of the things I've
Lisa (20:10)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maureen (20:36)
I've learned, but I'd love for you to talk a little more about this. So if you've been drinking for a long time, those are pretty deep, wide, strong neural pathways you've associated with trauma, stress, even reward. And when you start a new one, I tell my clients it's like a little baby bike path and it's like real tiny. Now the other ones, the more you stay away from the maladaptive behavior, drinking or drugs or whatever it is, they start to sort of grow over, but they're always there, right? Is that correct?
Lisa (20:44)
Absolutely. Yes.
Yes, correct. Yeah, exactly.
Maureen (21:06)
And that's why if you go back to the substance of the behavior, they light up like a Christmas tree, right? Yeah. Could you speak to that a little bit? Because I think that's so important because most people come to me and I'm sure they come to you, let go and, I would just really like to be a now and again drinker. And they've already gone beyond, they've been drinking, they don't have an off switch and they're using it for all kinds of things. And they say, I just want to go back to this. Like, could you speak to that?
Lisa (21:12)
Absolutely.
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah, and it's so hard, right? Because I think a lot of times, you know, people do end up having to do that experiment and kind of really come to that place of understanding. That's just not possible. Because of exactly what you spoke to. I mean, you said a moment ago, just to coach, right? But, but you explained that perfectly. You explained that beautifully. That's the exact same way that I explain that to my clients. If it's that five lane highway versus that dirt road and
Maureen (21:36)
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
Lisa (22:00)
And that highway's always gonna be there, right? And we have to kind of come to a place of accepting that and recognizing what that means, right? But that can be so hard for so many people because of all of the pressures and all of the things that people might still think that they're missing out on or that they're getting from it. And I think that's really where it is learning how to replace it with other things, right?
Maureen (22:21)
Right.
Lisa (22:30)
that little bike path or that little dirt road really beginning to carve that out and see, okay, yeah, what are these other things that can really begin to meet that need that I've been trying to meet with the substance, you know? And so kind of back to that idea of the complex trauma for people with complex trauma, a lot of that comes down to attachment.
Maureen (22:30)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (22:51)
Right? So especially when people have experienced trauma in their family of origin or in their home environment and they haven't had those emotional needs met for whatever reasons. Right. And a lot of times, most times, right. It's not that it's not that our families intend to do that. Right. It's just that they have their own stuff that they're dealing with. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so
Maureen (23:12)
Right.
Yes, generational. Yeah.
Lisa (23:20)
you know, let's say for example, you well, you know what, I'll just I'll use myself, right? I'll speak to my own story in that, right? So, you know, both of my parents have struggled with their own maladaptive relationship with alcohol. And that was their way of coping with their own stress. And my dad struggled severely with his mental health issues. And, you know, and my mom used work as a way to cope with dealing with him and dealing with the
Maureen (23:35)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (23:50)
the pain and the toxicity in their relationship. And so, you know, there wasn't anybody available to provide me with the skills to deal with my emotions and the way that I needed growing up, right? Not because they didn't want to, but because they didn't know how.
Maureen (24:10)
Right, they were dealing with their own in different ways. Yeah, that weren't healthy behaviors.
Lisa (24:13)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Right. so there's a lack of this experience of healthy attachment. And, you know, human beings, we are social creatures, we, we thrive off of connection and attachment. And that is our first line of defense, right against the world is connection is attached, right? When, when a child's distressed, what do they do? They cry out, right? They open their arms, they look for somebody to help.
Maureen (24:21)
I see.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Lisa (24:42)
And you know if we get those experiences early on of not getting the help that we need or not having that attachment or attunement we look for it somewhere else and Substances do the trick. Hey, so we experience
Maureen (24:55)
They do do the trick, don't they? Right? Like, let's just talk about them because you can't just say they're bad. We know they're quote unquote bad, but the truth is they do depress your central nervous system in the case of alcohol, let's say. And so you do get that calming effect or otherwise we wouldn't do it. But then you get a backlash and it actually depletes all the very neurotransmitters we really need to help us to feel better. But, you know, we wouldn't be doing any of these things if they didn't initially.
Lisa (25:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Maureen (25:24)
have that effect we're looking for.
Lisa (25:26)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, right? And so, you know, a lot of that kind of comes back to that seeking, seeking attachment, right? You know.
Maureen (25:32)
Mm-hmm.
and you connect with other people who are doing it too. You feel some sort of connection there.
Lisa (25:39)
Totally. Yeah, yeah. mean, a lot of times attachment issues and codependency and toxic relationships go really hand in hand with trauma and with substance use disorders. You know, so many of my clients and again, right, myself, there's that connection there of just looking for somebody and something to hold on to, right? When you feel like you're drowning, right? You're just looking for something to hold on to somebody or something to be that life raft in it.
Maureen (25:59)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (26:09)
But usually we look for that in these really maladaptive places, right? And so a big part of recovery is, okay, so how do we start to form healthy attachment? What does that look like? How do we start to recognize that and seek that out in places where people are capable of giving that to us, right? Which can be really scary and difficult and daunting in the beginning. Yeah, and so that's where for me,
Maureen (26:13)
Yeah.
Right.
Yes.
And one of those is therapy, right? One of those is going to see someone like you. Therapy.
Lisa (26:39)
Totally. Yeah, absolutely. So for many people that can be kind of that first experience of really healthy attachment and attunement. And that's where the therapeutic relationship is so important. I mean, I value my connection and my relationship with my clients so much.
Maureen (26:49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm just thinking of this as a total aside guys, but I got to tell this kind of funny story. So I'm in 11 months of not drinking and Lisa and my sister Donna and Lisa's business partner and best friend Erica and Kylie, my niece, Lisa's daughter are all going to Italy. And you know, in my dealing with clients, everybody's terrified of traveling, especially to Europe without drinking. And
Lisa (27:06)
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen (27:29)
So these guys called me like, hey, you want to go to Italy with us, you know, a girls trip. And I was like, I don't know. I don't know if I can do that. You know, and then I thought, wait a minute, let me think about who I'm going with here. I'm going with supportive, loving family and Lisa, you know, is not drinking. I knew Erica really didn't. know Donna doesn't, you know, around with you and she doesn't hardly drink anymore. You know, so I was like, of all the opportunities to go to Europe, this is amazing. And so,
Lisa (27:39)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Maureen (27:57)
We went and it was such a, in so many ways, it was just so good. It was good for our relationship, like getting to see you in a whole other light, traveling in a safe space with safe people and experiencing Italy, Venice specifically, without substances. I like, yeah, it was amazing. It was such an eye-opening experience and the best, but I'll tell you this funny little story. So we took a side tour to the Dolomites, beautiful, really incredible. And we stopped at a little snack shop because it was a long drive.
Lisa (28:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
best.
Maureen (28:27)
and everybody got something to drink and something to eat. And I got this can and I was very focused on if it had sugar in it or not. So I'm reading these ingredients in Italian, not paying attention to the fact that it says control on the front of the can. So we all get into the van and Lisa is actually sitting behind me and I'm sitting next to my sister and I take a swig of this drink and I hadn't drank in 11 months. And I'm like, that tastes weird. You know, it's very weird soda.
And then I took another sip and whoosh, it went right to my head. I thought, my gosh, this is alcohol. And I'm like doing all this in my head. I'm not talking out loud, but Lisa being very observant, it's like, what's going on? I'm like, I just drank alcohol. And like she switched from my niece to like therapist hat on. Okay, let's talk about intent here. And it was like, I highly recommend traveling with a therapist guys, because it's incredible.
Lisa (28:59)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, if you got one of those in your family, right? They're helpful to have a lot around.
Maureen (29:25)
Yeah, if you got that, it's a way to go. And I thought, you know what, you're right. I didn't intend to. And the beautiful thing was it was such a gift. And you said that you're like, what's the gift in this? Because we processed this over the next few days. And I said, the gift is I didn't want that feeling. I didn't like that very feeling I used to look for in my first few sips of alcohol. And I literally was looking at my watch and like, okay, this takes about 20 to 30 minutes to dissipate, you know. But internally in my head, before anybody even knew, I was like,
I could have drank it, right? Nobody would have known, but I would have known. And that's when I really knew I was so done with alcohol. And so it really turned to be such a good gift. But when I saw you, I just saw Lisa like all of a sudden in a different way and the beauty and the compassion and the understanding. And you helped me so much to realize that was actually a big gift and really increased my confidence in being a person who doesn't drink. And so...
Lisa (30:02)
Yeah.
Maureen (30:22)
I don't know if I ever told you how grateful I am for that. And I plan to travel with them again, because it was so much fun. We had the best time.
Lisa (30:31)
Definitely. Yeah, it was such an amazing trip and thank you for sharing that experience and that memory. you know, I'm so grateful that I was able to be there for you in that moment, right? And that experience of connection and I knew exactly how that felt, right? Because I had a similar situation early in my own recovery of, right? Like accidentally drinking something that I thought was, you know, like iced tea. And meanwhile, it's like, you know, got all this booze in it and that.
Maureen (30:43)
Yes.
Yep.
Lisa (30:58)
that shock and that, my gosh, and that panic, right? But being able to have somebody that can say, hey, it's okay, right? You're okay. Yeah, that's huge. That's huge. And to not have to feel like ashamed or embarrassed in that moment, right?
Maureen (31:01)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yeah. It really was.
Yeah, and vulnerability, I've learned, kills shame. Getting it out there, talking about it with trusted individuals, people that you have connection with, all of that. So I love my niece, guys, in case you can't tell, I'm very proud of her. So what I love is you took it even further and now you do this, again, correct me if I'm wrong, trauma therapy yoga. Like you've gotten trauma-informed yoga. So can you talk about what that is?
Lisa (31:16)
Yes, absolutely.
Thank you. I love you too.
Maureen (31:43)
how it helps and what you're doing right now with that.
Lisa (31:48)
Yeah, so, gosh, there's like a whole other piece, right, that we could probably spend a whole nother segment talking about. But, all right, cool. So, you know, part of my story, my journey was also reconnecting to my physical body in a safe way and not to spend too much time going into it. But obviously, as you know, I struggled with a lot of health issues, you know, that very much played a big role.
Maureen (31:52)
Yeah.
Well, you can come back. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (32:17)
in my using substances. I have several different autoimmune disorders and I live with chronic pain. And so that was another piece of why I looked for substances to medicate that. And so the experience of the psychological trauma, right? And then the physical trauma of being somebody with medical issues.
I was really disconnected from my body. My body was not a safe place. My body was not a place where I wanted to be. know, and so yoga was a huge part of my personal journey in reconnecting with my own body and learning how to make my body a safe place. I would say again, but I don't know that it ever was, right? you know, so was kind of initially, I was actually initially introduced to yoga by
Maureen (32:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Lisa (33:11)
your oldest sister, my aunt. huh. Yeah. but out in California when yoga really hadn't hit the East Coast yet, and she was like, yeah, there's people here doing this like cool new thing. I think you'd really like it. You got to check it out. you know, and I didn't reconnect with yoga until into my recovery. when I was trying to figure out what like being in my own body looked like and trying to figure out how to just cope and deal and exist. and
Maureen (33:13)
Merity.
Lisa (33:40)
You know, initially the type of yoga that I practiced was very much like the power yoga and vinyasa. And it was really about kind of finding what my limits were and gaining this sense of like empowerment over my body and trying to see like, what could my body do? What could I do with this body of mine? And as it progressed, I started to gain more more appreciation for different styles of yoga that were a bit more gentler and were more focused on breath work.
right, and meditation and learning how to just create some space and some stillness and not being afraid to sit with myself anymore, right, actually like allowing all of that emotional junk, Mm-hmm. Yeah, the emotional junk, the physical pain, right, learning how to just allow it to be present and to sit with it and to breathe through it and to know that I was gonna be okay.
Maureen (34:19)
Yes.
Discomfort, yes, yes.
Lisa (34:38)
And so yoga was a huge part of me learning how to do that. you know, there's a lot of research that speaks to the efficacy of yoga in healing from trauma in particular, you know, because of that brain body connection, because of the way that trauma manifests in our physical bodies, the way it gets kind of stored and held. So again, I could spend, you know, a whole nother time kind of
Maureen (35:05)
Yeah, in the tissues, right?
Lisa (35:07)
Yeah, yeah, the issues in the tissues, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's, you know, there's a ton of research on there. You know, if you if you follow any like Bessel Vander Kolk's work or Gabor Matei, right, they talk so much about that, that mind body connection and the way that trauma shows up in the body. So, you know, I have my own personal experience of knowing how
Maureen (35:10)
Yeah.
Lisa (35:31)
healing yoga could be. And I wanted to be able to offer that to my clients as well. So I ended up finding a school that specifically taught trauma informed yoga for mental health clinicians. So was really, really fortunate. It's called the Sakala school. It's in Eaton Town, New Jersey, and the woman who owns it and runs it is just wonderful. She's put so much into developing a really fantastic program.
Maureen (35:45)
Mm.
Lisa (36:00)
that again is geared for mental health clinicians wanting to be able to offer yoga to their clients. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I was really fortunate to find that school and to be able to to take that program. It was a year long program and it was a lot of work. And, and as part of that, there was a ton of personal reflection to which is really wonderful that, you know, for me, that just speaks to the fact that we're never we're never done healing and growing, right? There's
Maureen (36:06)
Very specific, yeah.
I remember.
Lisa (36:28)
There's always more. There's always another layer.
Maureen (36:31)
And you're never too old, take it from me. About to turn 59. You're never too old to start this healing journey and to grow and to learn. Yes, exactly. So now you are a certified trauma-informed yoga instructor. And what does that look like in your practice? And I think I heard you're now going to start offering workshops and one's coming to Maryland, people.
Lisa (36:33)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yes, yes. So what it looks like in my practice is I've been doing some like classes like small groups. I've been doing them kind of just as pop ups like once a month, I've got one coming up on the 23rd of this month. And so I'll offer them kind of monthly. Eventually, I'd like to do like a weekly, a weekly class just have to work that into the schedule, as well as offering that individually with clients. So I can do individual yoga sessions with
Maureen (37:15)
Mm-hmm.
Lisa (37:21)
client where, you know, it's just me and them and I'm guiding them through some poses and we're really focusing on that nervous system regulation, you know, and being able to build those skills in a safe way. And as you mentioned, yeah, I'm looking to offer some more retreats. So a dear friend of mine, Randi Bradley Martin, and, and I partnered and we're going to be offering a retreat in the spring. So our
Maureen (37:25)
Nice.
Lisa (37:51)
retreat business is called body wisdom retreats. if you follow us, yeah, exactly. Right. So much just even. Yes, body wisdom retreats.
Maureen (37:54)
Love it.
This is on Instagram, right? Body wisdom. Okay. Body wisdom people. Body wisdom retreats. Check it out.
Lisa (38:05)
Yeah, so, so Randy has a lot of specialization in sound healing and energy work. And what's really cool is she's also a she's a music teacher. So she does a lot of what's called internal sound healing. So a lot of like using voice and using sound, which is really powerful stuff. So being able to pair the internal sound healing with the trauma informed yoga really helping people to be able to get some
some release and relief and go a little bit deeper.
Maureen (38:38)
Yeah, I just laughing because I never understood the om in yoga. And then when I started to understand about vagal tone and the vagus nerve, like, there's a physiological reason for doing that. You know, so again, my science brain is like, okay, now I like, now I want to do that. Yeah. So yeah. I love, so you'll be combining that kind of thing. And do you know where in Maryland yet? Or should I just tell people to keep looking out for it?
Lisa (38:42)
Yes!
Yes.
Now I get it. Totally. Yeah.
Yeah, I can actually pull up the information for you. I should know that offhand, but you know.
Maureen (39:06)
That's okay. I'll definitely have it in the show notes and my newsletter so we can, you know, get back to that.
Lisa (39:15)
Yeah, so it's the Howlow Wood Retreat Center in Frederick, Maryland.
Maureen (39:19)
Frederick Maryland well, count me in. I want to be there. I already know that. That'd be so cool. Okay. Perfect. Well guys, as you can tell, we've just scratched the surface. We could talk for a long time. So I would love it if you came back, and with Erica, your partner, and that'll be a lot of fun.
Lisa (39:23)
All right, great, so it's April 11th to April 13th, but I will definitely share that info with you.
I'm
Yeah, that'd be great.
Maureen (39:39)
Lisa, I always ask people this, so what do you do to be sober fit? That could be mental, physical, emotional, spiritual, or all of them together. What is your favorite sober fit thing to do?
Lisa (39:51)
So I mean, as we mentioned, obviously yoga, right, is huge for me. But the other really big thing is time in nature, right? So where we were talking about like that seeking connection with other people, I think we're also as human beings, like so in need of that connection to nature. So for me, I am happiest when I'm in nature, out in the woods or in a body of water, you know, so that's a huge part of what helps keep me sober fit.
Maureen (40:18)
Yeah, I love that noticing nature, being in nature. And again, there are lot of studies about how that really affects our brain and our feel-good neurotransmitters in such a positive way. She literally does like to climb trees, people. I know this.
Lisa (40:23)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yes. yeah, give me a good treat and I'm so happy I will get up there. I don't care how old I am. I'm still getting up there.
Maureen (40:38)
Yeah, I love that, the kid in you. Well, it has been so great to have you here. And I said we could talk forever, but I'm going to cut it short a little bit. But it was so great having you here and I look forward to having you back. And thank you so much, Lisa, for coming on Sober Fit Life.
Lisa (40:40)
Yes.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you.
