Maureen (00:02.394)
Hello everybody, I cannot wait to introduce you to my guest today, Dr. Erin Kinney, someone who has already had a positive impact on my own health journey. And Dr. Erin Kinney is known as the stress reset expert. She is a licensed naturopathic doctor and she specializes in helping patients who are struggling with exhaustion, adrenal fatigue, hormone imbalances and more.
What's truly remarkable about Dr. Kinney is her ability to dig deep into the root causes of issues like chronic stress, fatigue, and anxiety. And I know she has helped me so much. Her holistic approach involves everything from personalized diet, lifestyle changes, and cutting edge genetic testing and natural remedies. So I love to welcome you to the show.
Erin I'm going to call you Erin today, Dr. Kinney at the office. And I'd love for you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about what you do. And also we're going to talk a little bit about alcohol and how it affects all these systemic issues that you treat.
Dr. Kinney (00:52.344)
Yeah, that's fine. call me
Dr. Kinney (01:07.768)
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm so excited you started this podcast. It's such such an important topic and I think it particularly in women, I treat both men and women, but I see more so in women.
Alcohol is a problem and I think women aren't really labeled as much and I know you guys talk about this a lot but and women it has a major impact on your hormones and on your body's ability to cope with stress and so you know I treat a lot of patients that are very very stressed out and and I talk a lot about my patients.
external stressors versus internal stressors. And an external stressor would be a job, maybe a relationship, maybe your kids, maybe something that's outside of your body. That could be pandemic, that could be, you know, election stress or whatever that might be. Something that we don't always have, you always have control over. And internal stressors are things like a chronic infection or diet, things that are going into your body or alcohol, right? And I think a lot of times we use alcohol and I said we use, I've used alcohol, I don't use it, but we use it as a way to cope with stress.
Maureen (02:01.722)
Mm.
Dr. Kinney (02:09.526)
but unfortunately alcohol is causing more physiologic stress inside your body. So it's you're like replacing the external stressors with another stress and almost a more damaging one because of the impact alcohol has on so many parts of the body. can dive into that but I think you this is commonly why people use alcohol is to help them kind of cope with stress but you know it disrupts your sleep, it's going to affect your gut function, it affects your hormones and like I said it...
it is an internal stressor, one, because it's a poison. alcohol? It's it's poison. So when it comes into your body, I was talking to a patient about this earlier today, and she was like, why don't we have a couple drinks a few times a week? Like, that's not that much alcohol. Like, my husband drinks like a fish. He's the one who's got the alcohol problem. I'm like, well, you know, she's sitting there, having a lot, a lot of symptoms, a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, you know, a lot of digestive stuff, skin and stuff. And I was like, well, this is what happens to your liver.
Maureen (02:40.013)
It is a poison.
Dr. Kinney (03:02.025)
is the thing that breaks down toxins and gets rid of things that our body doesn't want to have.
And when alcohol comes in, your liver's gonna stop doing whatever else it was doing, whether it was breaking down hormones or detoxing, getting rid of your fat cells or whatever else. Alcohol comes in, the body's like, I better get rid of the alcohol. So the liver will jump ship and whatever it was doing, it will focus on detoxing the alcohol. So you get the alcohol out there, because that's how the alcohol is important, but then your body's not doing some of these other functions that it should be doing. And if you do that chronically, we're gonna start to see some problems, right? I think everybody knows it. Yeah.
Maureen (03:32.452)
Yeah, that's such an important point. Let me just stop you on that point because to say it clearly, the liver will stop doing everything else, including breaking down calories and it will store that, right? It'll be like, let me put that aside and I've got to get rid of this toxin. That's going to become the priority. And so that affects so many things like weight gain, but also you mentioned hormones. And you know, if you're on a
Dr. Kinney (03:45.951)
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kinney (03:52.024)
Yes.
Maureen (03:58.532)
hormone patch or something like that, your liver, everything goes through your liver. Your liver has to put all that aside, processing medicines and everything else to process this toxin. And I like how you use the word poison because that's truly how your liver sees it.
Dr. Kinney (04:06.233)
Yep.
Dr. Kinney (04:10.468)
It is. I mean it is and you know, I'm no offense to anyone who's using it. It's a toxin or poison that's been around for long time, but it definitely is a poison. But I think the bigger issue that I think a lot of people, I have a lot of conversations with people about their alcohol. They're like, hey, how much do you drink? I always laugh. This is funny. Like, you know, I ask people about their diet. What do you eat for breakfast? What do you eat for lunch? What do you eat for dinner? And then I'll be like, and what do you drink?
And the people are like, I do coffee and water. I usually know that I'm going have it all. I'm what are you drinking? What do you drink? They're like, bourbon and wine. And I'm like, no, no, no, I didn't mean alcohol. I meant what do you drink during the day? And I was like, sorry. I need water. I drink water and seltzer water. But it's interesting. But yes, yes, they do.
Maureen (04:48.782)
Right.
Maureen (04:56.536)
Yeah, people associate the word drink with alcohol. Like, so when you're at a restaurant and people say, do you want to drink? That's why a lot of times people who are stopping alcohol have a hard time with that question because we're so not used to saying water or iced tea or something else.
Dr. Kinney (05:06.584)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.
But getting back to I was going to talk about, again, we use alcohol as a way to help us cope with stress. But then again, this gets you into this vicious cycle where, yes, you feel better maybe for the one or two hours while you're drinking, but then it disrupts your sleep. The next day, you're more likely to not make the best choices. You might skip a workout, or maybe you do a workout, but your body's not in a great state, so it's not a great workout. You might snack, eat more sugar, because it's going to affect your blood sugar regulation. And so that's another big one where we see a lot of
mood irregularities, you know, people when they're not drinking, they might not be as nice, they might be grumpy, or they might be kind of think of it as alcohol withdrawal, but really is how alcohol is impacting the blood sugar. And we get spikes and dips, you will see mood, you know, right? So then people are like, I don't feel like myself, let me have another drink. And so then they drink again. And as you get caught in this cycle, and you feel like, can't handle stress until I have my drink. But typically people don't really feel good while they're drinking, right? And you know, I know you and I have had this conversation many times before, alcohol is also a depressant
Maureen (05:52.868)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kinney (06:12.566)
to the central nervous system. So if you struggle with depression or anxiety and you're drinking even just a couple times a week, you are going to have a negative impact on your mental health. And again, this is also another cycle. are like, well, you you feel good while you're drinking because it loosens you up. you're like, happy you don't really care. But then as soon as that alcohol detox out of your system, you feel it worse right? And so then again, leads you to want to drink again. so it can be not a great cycle, but I think the big...
Maureen (06:13.07)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kinney (06:40.26)
Big thing I had, again, I had this patient in my office this morning who said she drank three times a week, maybe one or two drinks, and she was coming in for severe depression and with a touch of anxiety. And I asked, I was like, well, have you ever cut out drinking? She's like, it's not alcohol. Alcohol's not my problem. I was like, well.
Maureen (06:54.276)
Isn't that interesting? Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (06:55.906)
Yeah, we had a good conversation about it. Well, how would you feel if I asked you to stop drinking? She like laughs. She's like, well, I don't know about that. She's like, I don't think it's the problem. Well, it probably is. I don't know if it's a whole problem, but it's probably contributing to it. It's definitely not making it better. And she said, well, that would make me a little bit uncomfortable. It's good to talk about these things because if that is the thought of not drinking for, say, a month makes you uncomfortable, it's probably a good time to look at your relationship. And you can talk to this more than I can. right, like it's it's a again, think.
Maureen (07:22.766)
Well, I love how you actually ask those questions though. A lot of doctors don't and it does make people uncomfortable. And what we've been taught is to sort of shy away from that discomfort. But now through coaching, we get people to be curious about it. Well, let's think about that. If you're uncomfortable taking a break from alcohol, let's dig deeper into that. yeah.
Dr. Kinney (07:27.202)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (07:36.94)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (07:42.308)
Yeah, let's find out why. And I think it's important, I try to maintain in my office, you know, like a judgment freeze. I'm gonna judge, you know, like I'm human, I've used plenty of alcohol and I can talk about that in a minute, but.
Maureen (07:49.241)
Mhm, of course.
Dr. Kinney (07:56.068)
But I think being in a safe space where you feel you can talk to your provider or your coach about all these different feelings, like, hey, I feel uncomfortable with this. And maybe I want to stop from you and I'm not quite sure. on my podcast, I'm really big on making sure if you're struggling with any part of your health journey to have a provider that you feel safe talking about all of these things. You don't feel like they're going to judge you or they're going to shame you because of your whatever habits that you have. Right. I mean, the interesting thing being in the doctor's perspective is I run a lot of lab work and I can usually
Maureen (08:00.331)
Yes.
Maureen (08:17.146)
Exactly.
Dr. Kinney (08:26.414)
I can always tell if someone's drinking too much alcohol or maybe they're not drinking a lot of alcohol But if the alcohol that they're drinking is having an impact on their physical body, so there's quite a few numbers So typically I mean the kind of the common knowledge ones will see liver enzymes go up So there is a liver enzyme called ALT and AST and typically in a really heavy drinker. You'll see those liver enzymes be elevated There's also another liver enzyme called GGT, which is very specific to alcohol So if your GGT is elevated, it is like a number one hands-on
Maureen (08:35.3)
What do you see?
Dr. Kinney (08:55.878)
like you're clearly drinking too much alcohol for your system. The other liver enzymes, are other things that can cause them to go high. So if those are high, like I have patients that don't drink alcohol and they're high and they can have other causes, but GGT is specific to alcohol. So it's an enzyme the liver makes to help it process things. When there's been a lot of alcohol damage, the body will make a ton of that enzyme. So it's a pretty easy way for a practitioner to be like, yeah, you're gonna drink too much. But the other interesting thing is when you drink enough alcohol where it's having an impact on your system is
red blood cells will actually get a little bit too big. So there's a marker in what's called your complete blood count called macrocytic volume and it's measuring the size of your red blood cells. And it's supposed to be of a proper size because that's what carries hemoglobin and it allows cells to get delivered oxygen. Now when alcohol can cause the red blood cells to burst and it can make them like it makes them get a little bit bigger. So when we see elevated MCVs on the lab there are again there's a couple other causes for that. Sometimes it can be B12 deficiency or
or folate deficiencies, but if someone's B12 and folate levels are fine and their MCV is big, and that's usually the cause of when people get like a really red nose or a red face from drinking, usually we'll see that on their labs, their MCVs will be really elevated. that's like, I always laugh sometimes, are like, yeah, I don't really drink that much. I'm like, well, you're definitely drinking too much, these don't really lie. this is a message, don't lie to your doctor, because they're always gonna know. They know when you're lying. But yeah, so you can really see the impact with alcohol, and you know, think about that.
Maureen (10:17.336)
Right, you can tell. That's interesting.
Dr. Kinney (10:24.56)
having an impact on your red blood cells, which are delivering oxygen to every cell in the body. if your red blood cells are too big, the oxygen delivery is not going to go as well, which we think about getting oxygen to the brain or again, know, muscle cells or anything. This is where chronic alcoholism can start to cause fatigue and whatnot over time. So yeah.
Maureen (10:44.218)
Yeah. Well, you know, want to, I could imagine if I was listening to this podcast right now, I'd be going, well, I don't drink that much, you know, because we're even if I was because we think, it's only the person who is like an end stage needs medical intervention must be having these numbers. Is that true? No. Yes.
Dr. Kinney (10:50.328)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (11:01.154)
Yeah, no, I'm talking about women that maybe drink they drink like three glasses of wine at their book club and maybe they go out on a Saturday night and have a couple of cocktails and and this is gonna be you know, how sensitive is your body? How how healthy is your liver? How much is your body able to actually detox that alcohol because if you're not good at detoxing then that alcohol is going to stay in your system a little bit longer and it's more likely to cause more damage and there are a lot of people that Don't detox as well as others right and you know, it's interesting
Maureen (11:14.831)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kinney (11:31.078)
I treat a lot of women like perimenopausal or going through menopause. And when we go through menopause, the system becomes a lot more sensitive to alcohol, more sensitive to everything, right? The body's going through all these changes, but I'll see women that, you they used to drink a lot and then they try to drink that same amount through menopause and their body just goes crazy. It's because during menopause, when you stop losing a monthly cycle, your period is away with which your body like detoxes. When we don't have that anymore, it puts a little more stress on the other routes of elimination, like you know, the sweat glands and the bowels and
Maureen (11:38.351)
Yes.
Maureen (12:00.676)
Interesting.
Dr. Kinney (12:01.479)
the kidneys. So when you drink more, there's a more toxic overload during menopause because the body is trying to readjust to losing one of the detox drugs. So we tend to see alcohol have a bigger impact for that age demographic.
Maureen (12:14.03)
Yeah, let me, I'm gonna, we're gonna edit this part out. Do you have a microphone by chance? real, like, you are, you're saying such good stuff, but you're sounding like in a tin can or something. No, that's all right. Yeah, I think if you're closer. Yeah, yeah, there you go. Cause I'm like, gosh, that's really good information.
Dr. Kinney (12:16.696)
Yeah, sorry.
I do have a mic. Yeah, it's here.
Yeah, I'm sorry do you want me to repeat some stuff is that better if I did here Yeah, okay, sorry Okay, sorry This is why I to die to come in person because they tell me like nothing like that close to you
Maureen (12:40.086)
Yeah.
Maureen (12:47.758)
Let's hear you say some. Better. Yes, thank you. Yeah. That, let's go back to that interesting point about menopause because so many women are experiencing hot flashes and dehydration and they're not feeling well, they're feeling bloated and they're drinking and they're taking maybe hormone replacement. How does alcohol impact all of that?
Dr. Kinney (12:48.036)
What do you me to s- Hello? Better? Better. Okay, go.
Dr. Kinney (12:56.578)
Yes, sure.
Dr. Kinney (13:09.272)
Yes.
Well, again, if we think about the physiology that we talked about earlier, when alcohol comes in the body, liver is going to prioritize detoxing that. But if the liver is already a little bit overloaded because let's say you're on an estrogen patch or taking hormones, or maybe you're taking other medications, right? It just puts a heavier burden on the liver. And because when you're in menopause, you're no longer bleeding and a monthly bleed is one of the body's ways of detoxing all your other detox routes. So that would be like sweat glands. That would be feces. That would be urine.
burden so alcohol is you're gonna feel the effects of alcohol more so than you did maybe in your 20s or 30s when you were cycling and what this can look like is alcohol can make hot flashes worse it can make insomnia worse it can make anxiety or hangxiety a lot worse right and I mean I see so many women that will be like my god I used to able to drink XYZ when I was you know when I turned 45 and then I feel like I have one glass of wine and I don't sleep well and it's a mess and I get you know I get flushed and and like I said you know I talking about the labs over here I see alcohol
Maureen (13:53.855)
Yes.
Dr. Kinney (14:12.194)
have more of an impact on the physical body in labs during that menopause time. either some... yeah.
Maureen (14:16.878)
Yeah, that's so interesting. I never thought of when you have your period, that's a form of detox. That is such an interesting point. Of course.
Dr. Kinney (14:22.25)
It is. It's a monthly detox, right? So, know, lot of patients that have, that are on the birth control pill and they skip their period, you know, they'll take the pill like month round and, you know, used to caution them. I'm like, hey, like this, you're supposed to get a bleed. It's why women live longer than men, right? We clean out our blood every month. But then you go through this time where we lose that and the body has to like, all of sudden, again, it puts more stress on the other routes of detoxification and, you know, alcohol has to be detoxed. So if you're adding more things and have to
Maureen (14:40.363)
Interesting.
Dr. Kinney (14:52.096)
be detoxed, it's just going to put more stress on those things. know, caffeine is another thing that I talk about a lot of patients because caffeine is, you know, usually the body will do alcohol first and caffeine is second in terms of like detox priority. let's see if you're also drinking a lot of caffeine. And I'm not saying you shouldn't be drinking caffeine, but if you're drinking a lot of caffeine to make up for the alcohol that you drank the night before, you're putting a lot of stress on your body, right? Yeah.
Maureen (14:54.926)
Yeah, makes total sense.
Maureen (15:11.235)
Right.
Yeah, not even mentioning dehydration from both of those.
Dr. Kinney (15:17.22)
100 % yeah, I mean that's the other thing we haven't even talked about is alcohol depletes a lot of your nutrients. It's gonna deplete your magnesium, it's gonna deplete your B vitamins. You know, when we're in med school you learn about you know, fetal alcohol syndrome, which is when a mother drinks with a pregnancy. Typically you know, if someone is an alcoholic, their levels of vitamin B2, all the B vitamins would be B2 and thymines would be one, get so low that you can start to get like...
actually the brain stops working properly but when you have those levels really low during a pregnancy it will affect the fetus's brain. But so you know so alcohol you know if you're the point where you're drinking you know all of your meals and you're not eating your B-virus will get so low that
that nothing really works right in the body when you don't have B vitamins because they're the major co-factors. B vitamins and magnesium are the biggest co-factors in the system. And when your magnesium gets low, guess what? Your anxiety's gonna go up, your depression's gonna go up, your stress is gonna feel more overwhelming, your energy's gonna go down, you're gonna sleep, because our magnesium's so important. And if you're drinking caffeine and alcohol, your magnesium's gonna be really low. yes.
Maureen (16:20.216)
Most people are walking around low in magnesium. And yeah, so I want to go back to that nutrient absorption because that was a big problem for me. But by the end of my drinking, my gut was a mess, you know, because I was just causing problems and damage to my gut and I was not absorbing nutrients. So when I stopped drinking, I did take a bunch of B vitamins and a lot of healing supplements. So can you speak to that, what alcohol does to your gut microbiome and the lining of your gut?
Dr. Kinney (16:29.858)
Yes, yes.
Dr. Kinney (16:41.762)
Yes.
Sure.
Yeah, yeah, I mean it does a lot of things. So one first thing we'll talk about the lining, know alcohol dehydrates you it's been saying when you dehydrate the body you will affect the cells that line the mucosa in the small intestine so the gut lining and when those guys get dehydrated you can develop what's called leaky gut and leaky gut basically means whatever's coming into the small intestine, you know, things in the small intestine are supposed to get absorbed but they get absorbed
Maureen (16:52.122)
and
Dr. Kinney (17:13.334)
only when the body wants to. So there's very specific receptor proteins throughout the cells that will play like, I'm going to absorb calcium only, I'm going to absorb sodium, I'm going to absorb proline and lysine. With leaky gut, those things will go, they pass through the small intestine lining without going through their receptor. And so sometimes the body can start to develop an immune reaction to that. And so eventually what will happen is the lining of the gut will actually get damaged because of the immune reaction that will happen. And then you go to eat anything, you're not going to actually absorb those nutrients.
So and and and you know You're a good like case, you know to look at you you stopped drinking So you're like, I should be better. But unfortunately, it takes some time to heal leaky gut, right? So, know, and if you are already low on nutrients and not absorbing nutrients your body needs those nutrients to heal that lining so it can just take a little bit longer but sometimes I consider I Have some patients that will tell me they're like, hey, yeah, I gave up drinking for like two months But I didn't feel any better. So I went back to it. It's gonna take a little longer than three months
Maureen (17:43.588)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen (17:54.51)
Yes.
Dr. Kinney (18:13.158)
for your body to heal from some of the damage that's happening there. Yes, yes, I think it's good to be looking at your diet and looking at some other things to help heal that lining. But so the second way that alcohol can impact the gut is it is going to affect the microbiome or the flora, as you mentioned.
Maureen (18:16.708)
a little longer than three months and I think also don't you think they need some supplements and some things to help?
Maureen (18:32.794)
Yes.
Dr. Kinney (18:34.084)
It does this in multiple different ways. One, it's going to affect the liver. It's going to affect the production of bile. It's going to affect breakdown of things in the stomach and then small intestines. we get, once you get larger clunkier molecules of things that actually can't be absorbed, but they'll be food for the bad bacteria. So we sometimes see like an upregulation of bad bacteria, not enough growth of the good bacteria, and that can cause all kinds of problems. That can actually start to cause problems with your estrogen metabolism, with estrogen levels in general. It can cause problems with thyroid conversion, T4 to T3 conversion
And not to mention just give you crazy symptoms like bloating and gas and just feeling generally uncomfortable from a GI perspective. And some of those things can get better pretty quickly when you stop, you know, putting the alcohol into the system. But I know for myself, like I...
Maureen (19:04.452)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen (19:10.946)
Right.
Maureen (19:16.92)
Yeah, definitely.
Dr. Kinney (19:22.254)
I don't tolerate alcohol very well. I'm not even close to menopause, but I've never tolerated it that well. have, I think we're gonna talk about this later, I have a pretty bad mutation of the MTHR mutation, which means I don't detox as well, and we'll dive deeper into that. So when alcohol comes into my system, it takes a little bit more of a toll. But one of the first symptoms I get is I don't digest my food well when I drink alcohol. So when I discovered this in my 20s, I would be like, you know what, if I had a meal and I drank, I'd get like bloating, gas, diarrhea, I would feel terrible. So I would usually go, if I'm gonna drink, I won't eat. Well, guess what that did, like blackout.
Maureen (19:51.618)
Right. think a lot of women do that.
Dr. Kinney (19:52.16)
Not something that was fun, but a lot of people have that same thing and a lot of women do that.
And you know, it's interesting because alcohol, wine in particularly in low levels can be like a digestive that can actually help with, you know, but for some people, you know, because of its poisonous nature, it gets into the stomach and it just, it's stressful to the system. So it shuts off digestive capabilities. So then whatever you're eating, you're not digesting and you don't feel very well. So if you're someone that's drinking alcohol the next day, like your digestive tract is really out of whack, you have diarrhea, you're bloating, you've got, you're guess what? Alcohol's really not your friend. Not your friend. Yeah.
Maureen (20:27.14)
That's how I was. Yeah, that was me. But I would, the power of denial is so strong. I'd be like, it must be dairy. It must be gluten. It couldn't be the alcohol because I didn't want to let that go.
Dr. Kinney (20:29.122)
Yeah. Please still do it. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It's crazy how strong a hold it will get on your brain. It took me probably the better part of a decade. I still drink occasionally, but I feel so much better when I don't. And I think the other thing, because it has such an impact on gut health, particularly my gut health, when I drink, my ADD gets worse, my brain fog gets worse, the next day, my anxiety, have a history of depression, and I think when I don't drink, my mood is fantastic.
Maureen (20:52.644)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen (21:02.17)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kinney (21:10.383)
I don't, even if I start drinking just a little bit, I notice downward trends and I'm lucky enough to be in a situation where I see, you know, I see what it can do to people and what cutting it out can do to people. So I'm always like, that's good, they cut that out and they feel that much better. So if I kind of get that reinforcement all the time, I'm like, hey, you know, you're probably going to feel better when you're not drinking.
Maureen (21:29.85)
Well, you bring up a good point because it's awareness. And you being in the medical field, you're very aware. You're seeing it in patients and you were in medical school when you started to notice this about yourself. But it's when we're not aware and we don't want to be aware, we don't want to see it, that we can stay stuck in this drinking cycle, even though our health isn't doing well. And most of the people I coach are very health conscious and they're literally splitting hairs between
Dr. Kinney (21:32.964)
Yes, it's 100 % awareness.
Dr. Kinney (21:40.792)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (21:55.224)
Yes.
Maureen (21:57.636)
Should I have olive oil or canola oil? Should I have stevia or regular sugar? And yet not looking at the alcohol piece. And I did it for years. again, no judgment. It's just what we do because we don't, we're afraid to give it up for a lot of reasons.
Dr. Kinney (21:59.89)
yeah. yeah.
Dr. Kinney (22:07.256)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (22:13.612)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think sometimes you don't want to give it up because you're worried about what you might feel if you don't have it there. Like what emotion is going to come up that it's been kind of helping you keep it at bay, right?
Maureen (22:24.994)
Yeah. So it's all emotional regulation as well as physiological regulation. And it works together because you see people who have adrenal fatigue and that, like I did with you, and this is even post-me stopping drinking, I still needed to come to you to get some help with the right supplements to get myself back on track. if you're drinking and you have stress and adrenal fatigue and you're maybe emotional avoidance and you have a bad gut,
Dr. Kinney (22:27.992)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (22:36.158)
yeah.
Dr. Kinney (22:43.716)
Thank
Maureen (22:55.255)
What do you say to that person who comes in? Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (22:58.712)
Who's still drinking? I mean, I think I always come at a place where I'm gonna meet people where they are, right? I always bring it up. I would tell them, I have to have this conversation. My first job is to do no harm and to tell you all the things that could be possibly doing harm. And you're like, I gage where they are with that. And some people will, it's like a very clear one that they're not interested in. And I would say, hey, listen, we can do this work. Just know that when you drink, it's gonna make it harder for this healing journey to happen.
Maureen (23:05.518)
Mm-hmm, you have to.
Dr. Kinney (23:28.484)
Right. And it's really because every time you put alcohol in, it's just stealing the body's energy that it could be using to heal you. Right. So not that you can't see some progress, but it's going to be hard. And I have some patients that I've worked with for a while and, you know, I don't see much shift in that, you know, I would just say them, hey, listen, I don't know if we can work together anymore until we like are able to have a conversation and really tackle this piece. But a lot of times I think when people are coming to see me, they really want to get better. Right. So it usually opens the door.
Maureen (23:28.718)
Yeah, that's a point.
Maureen (23:38.372)
harder.
Maureen (23:56.356)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (23:58.438)
And I have a lot of conversations with particularly my patients in their like 20 to 30 demographic They don't like to drink alcohol as much. It's kind of cool. Actually. They're there. Yeah, it's really great the 30s by 30 somethings there They're still drinking but a lot of them are very curious about not drinking. It's really interesting is I treat a lot of you People that are in the same social circle. So there's like, you know group of like five friends I'm actually and they all will come in and like this weekend. I like there's so much drinking I just feel like crap and I don't want to drink anymore, but I feel like I
Maureen (24:06.51)
Yeah, isn't that interesting?
Maureen (24:16.068)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kinney (24:28.378)
have to, there's always pressure. And I'll say to them, maybe you all your friends are saying the same thing. So why don't you guys just, and so I'm seeing, I'm starting to see a shift there where they're like, yeah, you know what? We're gonna go do a sober activity together. We're gonna go like try something out that's not drinking. So I do see a shift in like the younger demographic that they're realizing, hey, alcohol makes me feel like crap. I maybe wanna do something else for my body, right? Like, yeah.
Maureen (24:33.102)
Yeah.
Maureen (24:50.382)
Yeah, it's very encouraging to see that. But it is more the demographic, my age and up, 50 and up, that are still drinking hard.
Dr. Kinney (24:55.522)
Yes, yes, yep, that demographic.
they're drinking hard and they're not always willing to have a conversation about it. That's a little bit of a harder conversation. It's like, I'll bring it up and I can tell they get kind of prickly and walls go up a little bit. And I still, I'm just like, listen, you might not like me for the next five minutes, but I'm going to tell you all the things that alcohol can possibly do like, this is your body and this is your choice. you know, and then I'll say like, we're going to look at your labs and you know, your labs will tell me like how much of an impact. And that sometimes can be very motivating for people, right? They look at me like, wow, actually I didn't realize that, you know, those four or five drinks that I'm having every week
Maureen (25:13.991)
You
Maureen (25:24.761)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (25:30.442)
or every weekend or whatever it is, it's taking a toll on my body. sometimes for people that are very data-driven, the brain sees that and is like, I mean sometimes the people that really don't want to stop drinking, they'll come back with me and they'll be like, well, it could be these five other things. And I'm like, yeah, it could be, we're probably not, but yeah.
Maureen (25:44.12)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you use the word journey and I use it a lot too. I mean, it took me like 10 years from the time I started thinking, I'm drinking too much to actually completely ditching it. Right. So you go in and out of it and you try things and, know, hopefully you get to that place because it is an inflammatory agent that causes all these issues. But I love the point you brought up about showing them blood tests.
Dr. Kinney (25:55.236)
Stop. Yeah.
Maureen (26:10.846)
There's also this whole new technology of wearable tech, know, like the Garmin watches, the Oura ring, where you can see your... Can you talk a little bit about like what HRV is, why that matters and how it affects alcohol?
Dr. Kinney (26:14.731)
yeah, you can look at your HRV. Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (26:21.572)
Sure. So HRV stands for heart rate variability. So it's looking at, you know, kind of what your heart rate is doing. It's basically a measurement looking at how well your nervous system is adapting to things. And so when heart rate variability is not what we want it to be, that can indicate that we're doing something that's super stressful to the body. Right. And so patients will tell me, I noticed when I drank my HRV is terrible since last night. Like I'm getting terrible readings and, and, know, you don't have something to measure with HRV. Just looking at your quality of sleep is a really good indicator.
Maureen (26:44.474)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kinney (26:51.526)
people will like, I don't get deep sleep. I'm not getting enough sleep on the nights that I drink. And then your blood sugar, you know, the brain is CGMs and that can be really helpful in terms of data to gather like, okay, well, I noticed this, I've worn a lot of CGMs and when I do them, I'm like, that's a continuous glucose monitor. Yeah. So I will notice that if I have any alcohol, even just like half a glass of wine or something and I
Maureen (27:04.615)
That's the glucose, continuous glucose monitor patch.
Dr. Kinney (27:13.476)
the next day my glucose is not stable. It will be all over the place. And when we think about blood glucose, you know, have this, we're a video, right? Okay, so I always tell people that the, this is not great. If you're watching this, I have like a triangle now.
Maureen (27:16.524)
Interesting.
Dr. Kinney (27:32.694)
So your thyroid, your adrenals, and your sex hormones are in this very delicate triangular balance. If one goes up, it's going to affect the other two. If one goes down, it affects the other two, right? Because they're all linked together. The thing that holds that triangle up is your blood sugar. So if blood sugar is doing this and it's all topsy-turvy, it's very, very hard for the body to keep those other hormones balanced.
Right? So if blood sugar is dysregulated, it's going to be hard to get your thyroid and check. It's going to be hard to get your sex hormones to check. It's going to be really hard to get your adrenals to check. So if we're drinking alcohol and it's causing major blood sugar dysregulation, it's going to be really hard to get those hormones in balance.
Maureen (28:09.786)
Now that is such an interesting point because I do have so many women who are my clients who ask me, well, how does it affect my hormones? so blood sugar, hormones, thyroid.
Dr. Kinney (28:17.092)
Yes, and that's usually like, mean, can do, it affects hormones that way because of the impact of blood sugar on the three major endocrine players, but also on the gut piece and the liver piece that we talked about earlier, right? So, know, if the liver's not able to break things down, we can get buildups of certain hormones and not enough of, you know.
So and not to mention, you know what alcohol is depleting all these nutrients you have to have magnesium and B vitamins in order to build hormones like the body doesn't just like they don't just appear out of thin air the body has to make them and those Mac Yeah, those are the building blocks. So if you don't if you're depleted of those guys, it's like you're not making estrogen and progesterone Right and if you're depleted in any sense that also is kicking up your stress hormones So when you're kicking up more stress hormones, you're not gonna make as much estrogen and progesterone, so So there's a lot of different ways that alcohol
Maureen (28:37.903)
Yeah.
Maureen (28:49.784)
the building blocks.
Maureen (29:05.24)
Yeah. It's so interesting because we can give everybody all this information, this physiological scientific information. I had a lot of it as a personal trainer. I knew that, but it can still have this psychological hold on people and you can just sort of be afraid. Well, what will I be like without drinking? How will I have fun without drinking?
Dr. Kinney (29:06.98)
impact on your hormones a lot.
Dr. Kinney (29:21.432)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (29:29.048)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Maureen (29:30.99)
Will I be able to socialize without drinking? How will I handle? How will I transition from my work day to the rest of my day? These are all just habits. And that's what I talk about a lot is habit transformation and how to do that in a compassionate, non-judgmental way. But imagine you're working on habit transformation too, to incorporate these healthy strategies.
Dr. Kinney (29:39.362)
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Kinney (29:46.604)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (29:50.404)
100 % Yeah, I mean that's you have to if you want to get results with anything You have to be compliant you have to do them every day So, you know patients like sometimes though like hey, I'm not great at taking pills more Okay, or taking some of them like what we got to work on building a habit about if we want to see the results from these supplements Buying them doesn't really get you there. You got to actually take them, right? We're like thinking about stopping drinking doesn't actually make the two you have to do it and it just takes it takes practice and I think you know
Maureen (30:10.01)
Yeah.
Maureen (30:17.912)
and curiosity.
Dr. Kinney (30:18.082)
I've had a conversation with patients that are, I don't think they have any sort of alcohol addiction, but they get nervous that they're not gonna be able to be in social situation without alcohol. And usually we'll have this conversation, like, hey, you just need to go out and just try it. So give yourself a reference point, you know, because once our body has a reference point or it's done something, it's like, and it can be like, that wasn't that scary. Then you're more likely to go do it again. But sometimes you just have to give it a chance. Like, hey, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna tell my friends, or maybe you don't tell your friends, whatever, but you're just not gonna drink and you're gonna be like, I actually am fun.
I can still be myself without alcohol, right? Yeah.
Maureen (30:48.75)
Yeah, you have to prove it to yourself and you have to be curious and it depends when you tell people too. Like if you tell people, man, I'm not drinking because my doctor said I can't and you know, this really stinks versus you know what, it just wasn't serving me and I'm just going to take a break and see how that feels. Like it all depends how you tell other people and what you tell yourself too.
Dr. Kinney (31:08.182)
Yes.
Yes. Yeah. And sometimes, I mean, I know for myself personally, I've gone through plenty, I've been to plenty of social events where I don't drink and sometimes I don't tell anybody. I'm just like, I'm gonna go out and I order, you know, a fizzy water or whatever I'm drinking and I don't, cause sometimes the less you say, the less there's going to be, people are going to bring up about it and why aren't you drinking? Are you pregnant? Could be this, you know, they ask about these questions and you're like, no, I'm just, I'm just not drinking. And then they want to know why. And then as I learned from you, like people are like, well wait, you know, whatever their thoughts about their own drinking is going to come out and it's going to impact what they say to you.
Maureen (31:37.679)
Yes.
Dr. Kinney (31:40.179)
But sometimes it is the mirror effect. Yes, it's good, but it is good practice to go do a social function and don't have any alcohol. Just see how, and even if maybe you feel bad, but that's good information for you to know. And then when you come back and you are working with a coach or someone to help you through this, you can give them that information and they can help you like rewrite that story.
Maureen (31:40.184)
It's the mirror effect. They're looking in the mirror. Yes.
Maureen (31:56.282)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen (32:00.6)
Yeah, I always ask my clients when they go through an event and they don't drink. I say, did you wake up the next morning and say, man, I wish I drank last night. And they're like, no, no, no, I feel so happy that I didn't do it. And you know, so you're teaching your brain. I want to flip to this because I don't know enough about this and you mentioned it, the gene, MTHFR gene mutation. What is that?
Dr. Kinney (32:08.234)
Do they? Yeah, no, says that, right? Yeah.
you
Dr. Kinney (32:21.046)
Yes. Sure. Yep. Okay. So this is a mouthful, but it stands for methyl tetrahydrofolate reductase. Otherwise known, can I curse on the show? Otherwise known as the motherfucker gene. Cause when you read it out, it's M-T-H-F-R, right? You can remember that. So basically what this gene does is it...
Maureen (32:27.001)
Yes.
Maureen (32:32.558)
Yeah. my gosh, you could remember that.
Dr. Kinney (32:40.836)
It codes for an enzyme that takes a methyl group, which is a carbon with three hydrogens, and it attaches that methyl group to folate, which is one of your B vitamins, B9. Now folate is a really important B vitamin in so that it is a part of two major pathways in the body. The first one is detox. So it is one of the first rate-limiting steps in several of the detox pathways. And the only way that folate can enter that pathway is if it gets
methylated. So this little enzyme, so it's like you've got folate over here and then the body has to attach something to it. This enzyme is the thing that attaches it there. So once the enzyme works and attaches the methyl group to the folate, then the folate can go into detox pathway and the detox pathway can operate. Right?
The other pathway that folate or methylfolate goes into is your neurotransmitter pathway. It'll go into building serotonin and dopamine and some other things. I'm simplifying this a little bit, it's a little bit more complicated, but this is how I like to think about it. So we've got the detox pathway and we have a neurotransmitter building pathway.
Maureen (33:36.652)
Yeah, it's good. Simplify.
Dr. Kinney (33:43.204)
If you have a mutation in this MTHFR gene, it means that your body cannot methylate. It means it cannot attach that methyl group to the folate at the normal rate. So the way that I like to explain this to patients when I'm thinking about this conceptually is folate comes in, let's imagine an assembly line and you've got like five or six different stations at this assembly line.
Station three, let's say, is a station where this methyl group is supposed to be attaching, or the enzyme MTHFR is attaching this methyl group to Folate. So Folate comes in, it gets to the station, and it's supposed to get out on the other side and then go to whatever pathway, you know, detox or hormone, or to the neurotransmitter building.
When you have a mutation, it's like you've got a worker with one hand. They're not going to be going as fast. They're going to be going a lot slower. And so that if that is one of the right limiting steps, which it can be, it means you're going to get a buildup of some substrate and not enough of something at the end. So typically with patients with a mutation in this, and I have, I have the worst mutation of this. So there's several different gene codes in the MTF-3R gene. So I am methylated at like a 25 % rate of the normal person. So basically I don't detox very well. And if you're listening to this and you're like,
wow, signs of this can be really sensitive, like you're sensitive to smells and perfumes and medications, you might not react the normal way, or alcohol, you're really sensitive to that, or maybe you don't sweat as much, or you just feel like you generally like...
don't tolerate things as well. It could be that it's an MTHFR thing. Now there are ways to work around this. You can give your body the methylfolate, which is the already methylated folate. You can give your body some of the building blocks. But I usually with my MTHFR patients, know, less is more when it comes to like substances in system because...
Dr. Kinney (35:22.372)
that methylfolate again, the detox and the neurotransmitter building are the two big ones, but there are other pathways that it works in, right? So, in some ways what we'll see is, again, issues with detox and clinically, patients with MTHFR with one of the gene mutations, we can see an increased rate of cardiovascular disease, of like cholesterol stuff, because you can't detox some of the toxins that affect the cardiovascular system. We also tend to see an increase of, excuse me, anxiety and depression because of, you you might not be
building your neurotransmitters as well some the methylates at a normal rate. So it has an impact on a lot of different things. for a while it was like, my God, you have MGH you should be able do this. So granted, I have that mutation. It doesn't mean that I don't methylate. Their body has many other pathways, right? So I could probably, yes, but something like alcohol, and if you're super stressed, an alcohol because it is a stressor in the system and it's a toxin-based detox has a pretty big impact on people.
Maureen (35:57.423)
Yeah.
Maureen (36:10.884)
but something like alcohol that requires...
Dr. Kinney (36:22.459)
So it's a cool thing to check for. you know, you can test for a switching test. have to usually do like a saliva or through blood.
Maureen (36:25.358)
You can test for it.
Maureen (36:29.55)
Okay.
Dr. Kinney (36:33.1)
you if you do have that mutation, you want to be really careful with folic acid, which is the synthetic form of benign, of folate. That's what you see in a lot of supplements. also enrich a lot of flowers and lot of things. So if something says enriched flower, that's going to have a really high content of folic acid in it. Now, folic acid has to have several extra steps done to it before the folate can be ready to be methylated. So it just puts an extra burden on someone who has MTHFR. So a lot of patients
who don't feel well when they eat processed foods or carbs, maybe it's from the gluten or the carbs, but oftentimes it's actually from the really high buildup of folic acid that they're consuming. And the other thing I want to look at is in lot of supplements, particularly in supplements like B vitamins, they put a ton of folic acid, especially the cheap one. So you want to look for either folate, which is the natural form, that's what we get from food, or you can take methylated folate, which is folate that already has that methyl group attached to it. And so then you're kind of bypassing that.
Maureen (37:30.349)
Okay, that.
Dr. Kinney (37:33.014)
So it's just kind of interesting to look at that kind of Yeah.
Maureen (37:35.202)
It is, it is, it is. Because some people just ignore that and they're like, I guess I just don't process alcohol well, but they still keep drinking. And then you mentioned something else that I often talk about with my clients is alcohol depletes your neurotransmitters. So even though you get that hit on the front end of the massive dopamine hit and it affects GABA and serotonin as well, eventually your body starts pulling back from its own production and maybe less receptors. So the very feel-good neurotransmitters that you want are being dep...
Dr. Kinney (37:47.832)
Yes, 100%.
Dr. Kinney (37:58.776)
Yeah.
Maureen (38:04.72)
by alcohol. So that's another system that's affected as well.
Dr. Kinney (38:05.976)
Yeah.
yeah, yeah. And then the interesting thing is like, I don't know that I'm trying to study this, but I think about this often. Like, you know, if you have an MTHGPR mutation and you are maybe already suffering from depression and anxiety, sometimes that population may be more likely to drink because, you know, they're trying to self-medicate, right? But then they get caught in a worse cycle or loop because, you the alcohol, yes, it makes them feel good for a minute, but they're actually making their neurotransmitter depletion even worse, right? So it's an interesting thing, yeah, to ask your doctor to like, hey, can you do this MTHGPR test?
Maureen (38:25.123)
Yes.
Maureen (38:29.305)
Mm-hmm.
Maureen (38:34.04)
Yeah, it's self-medicating.
Dr. Kinney (38:38.854)
You used to be to get it done in the 23andMe. You could do that whole genetic sequencing. I don't think they actually test for MTHFR on that one anymore. But it is a test you can do. You can do it through blood. doesn't always like to cover it. But there are some labs that you pay like $90 or something and you can get a couple of mutations and that's a saliva test.
Maureen (38:58.724)
Yeah, so if you're listening and you think you're a person who does not process alcohol well and you're noticing some of these symptoms, you could go see Dr. Kinney and be tested for this. So I just think it's so interesting when you look at all the systems that alcohol affects and it touches every cell. It goes right through the blood brain barrier, even nothing holds it back. So it does affect everything in the body. What would be your parting comment to people about
Dr. Kinney (39:05.762)
Yeah, yeah, we can help you with that. Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (39:19.576)
Yes.
Maureen (39:28.686)
reevaluating alcohol when they're trying to take care of their health.
Dr. Kinney (39:33.028)
I mean, think just having an honest conversation with yourself first, like, what is my relationship with alcohol? I think starting there and getting really clear on, is this something I could give up? Is this something I'm really struggling with? Do I need help in this regard? Because I think...
Maureen (39:41.978)
Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (39:54.114)
and I know you talk about white knuckling or trying to do this on your own, it's not always that helpful. Not that you need to go to AA or you know, that's what I love about your work is that it doesn't have to look like what you think it looks like, right? It could be a little softer than that. It doesn't mean that you're like an alcoholic, right? It just means like you're not, yeah.
Maureen (39:58.38)
Yeah. Right.
Maureen (40:09.422)
Yes, you don't need to label or judge. can just with curiosity and self-compassion take a look at things.
Dr. Kinney (40:13.54)
But exactly, and I think sometimes, this is what I often suggest to patients, I'm like, hey, we're gonna cut out alcohol for a month, we're gonna start with a month, or we're start with a week, we're gonna start with like baby steps, and we're gonna gather data, and we're gonna see how we feel. in my situation, we're also doing a lot of other things, which I think sometimes can be really helpful, because like we talked about earlier, sometimes you cut out alcohol because of the long lasting damaging effects of alcohol, you don't actually feel the benefits for a while, right? You might not feel physically, I mean, you feel a little bit better,
Maureen (40:20.952)
Exactly.
Maureen (40:26.52)
Yeah, gather data.
Dr. Kinney (40:43.524)
you don't feel like, wow, I wish I think that would feel so much better. But if we're also doing some of these other things, if we're like, you know, getting your nutrients back into what ended up on track and we're like getting your gut in a good place, you might actually feel the effects faster. And, you know, usually what I say to people, I'm like, okay, so we're going to give up alcohol for whatever time we decide feels comfortable for them. Like you actually may not want to go back and drink it. Or after that month, you might go and you might drink a lot of it. But then you're going to be reminded of how crappy it makes you feel. And sometimes that actually is helpful because it
Maureen (40:52.025)
Yes.
Maureen (41:13.22)
Yes.
Dr. Kinney (41:13.366)
Like you're like, wow, I didn't realize if you're drinking on a regular basis You might not actually realize how crappy it's making you feel because you're used to it. But if you cut it out Exactly Yeah, but if you cut it out for at least 30 days, then you know, you may drink again You might be like wow, I really feel like crap like I got brain fog my guts out of whack I can't focus whatever I get hot flashes and then it gives you again. It's just more data. I guess I was really having a negative impact on my body. Yeah, so I think
Maureen (41:19.5)
Exactly. And your body's tried to adapt in so many ways. Exactly.
Maureen (41:38.83)
Yeah, the data.
I think we should talk about doing a program together where we have people do the six-week reset with me at the same time you're giving them supplements, you know, to help them with their vitamins, their gut health, their microbiome, everything that we talked about. That would be really interesting to see.
Dr. Kinney (41:45.06)
Data, that would be fantastic. Yeah.
Dr. Kinney (41:56.068)
a great idea. I mean, and we could, you know, so that'd be cool to like learn labs before and after too if you could see the changes. I mean, it's typically you can see changes pretty quickly when someone comes out alcohol, like in the liver enzymes and some of the other things. It's cool. So let's talk about that after. Yeah, I that's great. Good idea.
Maureen (42:02.296)
That would be a great idea.
Maureen (42:10.008)
I love that. Let's talk about that. So what I love to ask people is what do you do to be sober fit? And it could be mental, physical, emotional, or all three.
Dr. Kinney (42:17.668)
Awesome. Yeah. Well, so for me, the first pillar for me is moving my body. Like I gotta do something to move my body every day. It's not always like intense exercise, although I do love a workout. So usually I do that first thing in the morning. And if I can't do it first thing in the morning, you know, would take a walk in the middle of the day or the afternoon. Moving my body, particularly if it's outside, I feel like it just keeps my head super clear. I'm a big fan of...
Maureen (42:37.679)
Yes.
Dr. Kinney (42:43.556)
I go back and forth between a meditation practice and a gratitude practice. Some days I have time. When I meditate, I like to do it for a long time. So if I have enough time, I'll do a longer meditation. And then I use that five-minute journal, which is the gratitude. I don't know if it's Mel Robbins, or she has a similar one, but it's fantastic. You're just writing down three things you're grateful for, a couple things that will make today great, and at the end of the day, you look back on your day and you're like, wow, these three things happened and that's fantastic. And then you write what would have made today better, but in a way that you're not beating yourself up.
Maureen (42:54.318)
Mel Robbins, yeah, I love her. I have one, yeah, yeah. Yes.
Dr. Kinney (43:13.51)
So those are the kind of non-negotiables for me. I've got to move my body and I have to have some either meditation or gratitude practice every day. I also have a big spiritual practice. I talk to God. I mean, when we talk to God, it's, hey, God, can you help me? I woke up and talked to God. And that, think, really helps me. It really helps me. And yeah, I think that's probably it. And then I think just trying to feel love and compassion for everyone in my life. And I think...
Maureen (43:27.26)
yeah.
Dr. Kinney (43:40.932)
You know, I've definitely been, I've struggled with depression and I've used alcohol. Yeah, and I feel like sometimes when I'm in a low place, I tend to assume, I tend to think people don't like me, you know, you get that like depressed at all. But I think when I'm able to practice gratitude and like get that love feeling, I know, everything feels so much better, right? Like, the sense of gratitude is really big. Yeah. Yeah.
Maureen (43:44.258)
Mm-hmm. We've talked about that,
Maureen (43:56.207)
Yeah.
Maureen (44:00.974)
Yes. I love that. The science of gratitude, really is. It's so important. And so you're hitting them all, the spiritual, emotional, physical and mental. So that's why Dr. Kinney is so great. And the stress.
Dr. Kinney (44:11.556)
I, and I, thanks. I mean, it is good to have all those pieces engraved. I'll be honest, I don't do all those things every day, but I will notice if I don't do at least one of them every day for a while, I won't feel very good, right? And yeah, so mean, and you know, the things I mentioned, they're all free. You can do them anywhere, right? And you can do them while you're traveling. It's, know, so yeah. Thanks for asking the questions. Good one.
Maureen (44:17.166)
Yeah, sure. You do your best.
Mm-hmm. Me too. Yeah.
Maureen (44:37.658)
Yeah, I love that. How can people find you? I know her. Dr. Kinney has the Kinney Clinic, but I want you to tell other people how to find you.
Dr. Kinney (44:40.356)
Sure, yes. Sure. So you can go to my website. It's thekinneyclinic.com and that talks about kind what we do with the practice and the clinic. And then if you want to follow me and listen more, can follow me on Instagram at Dr. Kinney or you can check out my podcast called The Dr. Kinney Show. And that's probably about it. And then we offer free 15 minute consults. So if you're like, hey, I want to know what it might be like to work for you or feel like you want to talk to me about what you've got going on, you can schedule one of those on our website. And I'm happy to chat with you.
Maureen (45:08.056)
Yeah, and I highly recommend Dr. Kinney. have to say she has helped me so much and we just scratched the surface. There is so much you can talk about.
Dr. Kinney (45:10.848)
thank you.
Dr. Kinney (45:15.884)
there's always so much to, yeah. Yeah, we'll do it again. We'll do it again. Yeah. You're welcome. Thank you. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, don't stop yet.
Maureen (45:19.138)
Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for being a guest. I appreciate it. Have a great day. So I'm actually not going to stop it. There we go. Yeah.
